My Cinema DNG's are not FLAT opened in AfterEffects

I have not seen this issue mentioned anywhere. Shooting in RAW 2.5k Film Mode (only mode available) my footage looks
way too saturated when viewed through PREVIEW, AFTER EFFECTS (In the Cinema DNG Viewer), Photoshop or Lightroom. The DNG's look contrasty, ultra grainy, ultra colorful, just plain wrong. When shooting PRO RES, "Video Mode" Dynamic Rage looks colorful (Rec 709?) and Film mode looks FLAT just how it should, when viewed in PREVIEW, AFTER EFFECTS, ETC.

My RAW files look nothing close to FLAT, but rather Pink in PREVIEW. I am using a MAC PRO 3,1 2008 and I will not be using it for a RAW BMCC workflow because of what I have read about Resolve just being too advanced no matter how much Memory and GPU's I get. I cannot install Resolve 9 because I only have a Radeon HD 2600 and no OSX 10.7 and only 6GB RAM. So as of yet, I don't have a way to know what I am truly shooting.

What I am worried about is if there is some sort of defect with the camera. Can anyone tell me if I need something, like a flat color profile, or AE CS 6 instead of CS 5.5. I have about a week before I must return the camera within the 30 day policy.

[Peter Chamberlain]

You could publish a frame of your recording so others can review.

Preview (and the other software you mention) is interpreting the DNG. It's making a guess as to how it should look.

DNGs are not flat. They are RAW files that get processed by what ever software you open them in.

If you open them in CameraRAW (Photoshop, AE, Lightroom) then CameraRAW reads the meta data from the file and makes a guess as to how the image should look. You can then tweak it in the CameraRAW panel (or Develop panel in Lightroom) as to how you want it to look. Adjust the White Balance, Exposure, Tint, Saturation, etc.

Preview (and the other software you mention) is interpreting the DNG. It's making a guess as to how it should look.

DNGs are not flat. They are RAW files that get processed by what ever software you open them in.

If you open them in CameraRAW (Photoshop, AE, Lightroom) then CameraRAW reads the meta data from the file and makes a guess as to how the image should look. You can then tweak it in the CameraRAW panel (or Develop panel in Lightroom) as to how you want it to look. Adjust the White Balance, Exposure, Tint, Saturation, etc.

Ok. So my cause for worry is two fold. 1. Whenever I see anyone's "Raw As Shot In Camera" clips uploaded for to the internet, they look desaturated. I assume this is because they were shot in Film Mode. My Pro Res Film mode shots look just that way, and I can go to town on them. In internet tutorials when using an Adobe Camera Raw Viewer, or CinemaDNG preview or whatever it is exactly called, I've seen people's RAW imagery look washed out, and from this they push and pull. But mine looks nothing like that. Are you suggesting that I make it duller/ desaturate it in the CameraRAW panel, and then push and pull the color information afterwards once the sequence is compiled and ready to be manipulated in After Effects. If that was the case what are the benifits? Again, all of this is about what I am seeing on import, it it way too colorful, and yes, I know there is color information, but could it be possible that the camera is not shooting correctly, or is it how you say, that each software interprets it the way it wants to interpret it. Do I need a Adobe Camera Raw update? Let me put up some stills I suppose, and what I am doing is opening the cinema DNG in After Effects and without pushing or pulling, I am going to just import the sequence. I'll post a pic and you guys tell me what you think.

Also, is it possible for the metadata to not be writing correctly. Or is there some sort of LUT that needs to be applied to the BMCC? Thanks for the quick responses guys.

You could publish a frame of your recording so others can review.

I am providing a comparison as it is seen in my After Effects. I am trying to find out why my RAW cinemaDNG's doesn't natively look like my PRORES FILMMODE. I do not know if it is a display problem or a recording problem.

In Resolve or AE, is everyone desaturating their footage before grading it? It doesn't seem like people are doing that, but I don't have the capability to use resolve, and I don't know if there is a LUT that you guys are initially afding to your DNG's to retrieve the most info before grading, i.e. making it look flat before grading.

RAW is RAW. It has no "look" until it's processed. It's actually Black and White that needs to be debayered.

You shoot flat in ProRes so that you can preserve the shadow and highlight detail. In post you then have better control over the look than having it "baked in" by the camera.

With RAW you process the image to get your look. Opening it in CameraRAW and adjusting the parameters to get your look is part of that process. If you want a flat look that adjust it as so. If you open the sequence in AE you can always return to the CameraRAW panel to adjust the look.

With Resolve you would often start with a flat LOG interpretation of the DNG and then grade as you see fit. You could however apply a Rec.709 LUT to the DNG from the start that would make the image much more saturated and contrasty.

Upload a link to a DNG.

RAW is RAW. It has no "look" until it's processed. It's actually Black and White that needs to be debayered.

You shoot flat in ProRes so that you can preserve the shadow and highlight detail. In post you then have better control over the look than having it "baked in" by the camera.

With RAW you process the image to get your look. Opening it in CameraRAW and adjusting the parameters to get your look is part of that process. If you want a flat look that adjust it as so. If you open the sequence in AE you can always return to the CameraRAW panel to adjust the look.

With Resolve you would often start with a flat LOG interpretation of the DNG and then grade as you see fit. You could however apply a Rec.709 LUT to the DNG from the start that would make the image much more saturated and contrasty.

Ok. Let it be known I don't "want" a flat image for aesthetic reasons, I just want to make sure that my RAW is RAW. Maybe a silly sounding question, but again, everyone's ungraded footage when ever they do before and after comparisons always looks flat originally, and I was wondering why my ungraded footage looks so saturated in AE or preview. You say it's because of how it's being interpreted. Fair enough. I know how to make it desaturated in the cinemaRaw panel, but my concern is that it is being acquired correctly. In Resolve, what do your RAW images look like when you open them for that first intitial viewing. Or when you preview your DNG's in finder do they just look however your computer decides to interpret them or do they look flat (like the ProRes image I provided above). It's sounding like I'm the only one with this problem, but by providing the above pictures I was trying to illustrate my confusion, concern. Thanks for the advice thus far, but I'm still scratching my head.

Upload a link to a DNG.

This is my first time on this forum, so I'm not sure but can you see the images in this thread? they are both jpgs, and I tried to upload the DNG, but I believe that the thread said it was too big to upload. I'll try again.

Attempting to upload the 5mb DNG....but maximum is 2mb.

umm, how do I provide a link to this DNG? Are you guys using flikr?

I'm really not a forum type of person (clearly) so apologies.

What do everyones RAW dngs look like is I guess the million dollar question. I can't upload one at the moment, or provide a link, but mine look colorful and ruddy pink indoors or outdoors. If I could find out what other peoples look like, It would be very informative for me.

Attempting to upload the 5mb DNG....but maximum is 2mb.

umm, how do I provide a link to this DNG? Are you guys using flikr?

You need to upload the DNG to dropbox of some other site and post a link.

Here are some of my DNGs:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/646 ... C_DNGs.zip

Attempting to upload the 5mb DNG....but maximum is 2mb.

umm, how do I provide a link to this DNG? Are you guys using flikr?

You need to upload the DNG to dropbox of some other site and post a link.

Gotcha. Well, to be continued. Hey, maybe if you have the file, and view it on your system you can tell me if it's normal huh? Cool.

Attempting to upload the 5mb DNG....but maximum is 2mb.

umm, how do I provide a link to this DNG? Are you guys using flikr?

You need to upload the DNG to dropbox of some other site and post a link.

Ok, my bro just helped me out with this link. Should work. I appreciate it if you could take a look at this DNG and tell me what you think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/718qfzt82a1xm ... 000224.dng

Ok. Let it be known I don't "want" a flat image for aesthetic reasons, I just want to make sure that my RAW is RAW. Maybe a silly sounding question, but again, everyone's ungraded footage when ever they do before and after comparisons always looks flat originally, and I was wondering why my ungraded footage looks so saturated in AE or preview. You say it's because of how it's being interpreted. Fair enough. I know how to make it desaturated in the cinemaRaw panel, but my concern is that it is being acquired correctly. In Resolve, what do your RAW images look like when you open them for that first intitial viewing. Or when you preview your DNG's in finder do they just look however your computer decides to interpret them or do they look flat (like the ProRes image I provided above). It's sounding like I'm the only one with this problem, but by providing the above pictures I was trying to illustrate my confusion, concern. Thanks for the advice thus far, but I'm still scratching my head.

Many of the examples you see online will have been interpreted in Resolve with the Film LOG mode. So will look flat. That is how Resolve processed the DNG unless you ask it to do it differently. You could set Resolve to interpret the DNGs are REC.709 and it would look different. It's all about choice.

I think your RAW files are responding correctly. In the finder the Mac tries to interpreted what the image looked like when shot. RAW in not flat. It's the simple the light captured by the camera. And that light had colour and saturation. So the Finder is trying to guess what that might have been like. The Finder does not know anything about the camera or your intention. The same happens with RAW files from DSLRs. The Finder tries to interpret them to. CinemaDNGs are the same as DSLR still RAW files.

This is the beauty of RAW. It can be processed in any way you see fit. It's not baked in by the camera. You have complete control.

OK here are 4 versions of the same DNG processed in different ways.

Open in Preview, resized to 1080p and saved

Preview.jpg (483.55 KiB) Viewed 28465 times

Processed in Resolve. Camera RAW set to Rec.709

Resolve_REC709_Only.jpg (487.71 KiB) Viewed 28465 times

Processed in Resolve. Camera RAW set to BMD Film

Resolve_BMFilm_Only.jpg (263.66 KiB) Viewed 28465 times

And here is a simple version processed as BMD Film, white balance adjusted from 5566 (thats what the meta data had) to 4500 and then applied Captain Hooks LUT.

Resolve_BMFilm_CPTHookLUT_WB4500.jpg (415.81 KiB) Viewed 28465 times

And here is a simple version processed as BMD Film, white balance adjusted from 5566 (thats what the meta data had) to 4500 and then applied Captain Hooks LUT.

Resolve_BMFilm_CPTHookLUT_WB4500.jpg

Mr Roberts, you are the man! Ok. I have the answer I was looking for. I have heard of this BMD FILM log mode applied through Resolve, but since I do not have Resolve running, well I had no way of really seeing what you have illustrated. This is exactly the type of help I was looking for when I joined the forum and thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to process my DNGs. If I'm ever in London I owe you a pint (half my family lives there). And likewise if you're in LA holla, get this dude a drink.

Is there a particular reason why anyone would process using BMD FILM log. I guess to preserve highlights and shadow details for the grade in Resolve. I'll have to find someone with a faster set up than mine, but it looks like I don't have to send my camera back. Thanks!

I'm gonna guess that people set the BMD FILM log in order to then put a LUT (captain hook or whatever they choose) on and have it blend together appropriately. Is this the idea?

I'm gonna guess that people set the BMD FILM log in order to then put a LUT (captain hook or whatever they choose) on and have it blend together appropriately. Is this the idea?

Yes and no.

In simple terms LOG is simple a way of taking as much of the 16bit of data that is decompressed from the DNG and putting it into a format that can be manipulated. From there is all depends on your intended destination. You could apply a Rec.709 LUT and export it ready for HDTV (you could also choose to decode the DNG as Rec.709 rather than BMD Film). Or apply something like Captain Hook's LUT and use that as your starting point for your grade. You could also simple start grading the file without a LUT.

If you were heading for theatrical release you might choose to decode the DNG as "P3 D60".

Adam,

Thanks for gaking the time to share your expertise with others here on the forum.

It takes some time, thought and effort, but I appreciate your input. I'm sure many other who read this forum feel the same.

Tom

Hey, sorry if I'm bringing up a dead thread, but I have a very related question.

Due to our chosen workflow (Editing in premier on proxies, then creating linked comps to After effects to replace the proxy footage with the DNG files, and color correct with FilmConvert Pro), I am in need of importing DNG files into After effects with the "Film" look (flat). Is there any way to do this? It seems FilmConvert expects to be getting something with that flat look before it does its conversions, and giving it my DNGs after Adobe Camera Raw does its processing to them is giving very very bad results.

Is there any way to get AdobeCameraRaw to interpret the files to look the way they would if they were ProRes Film mode footage, or as if I had applied BMD Film Color Space/Gamma in Resolve?

If this isn't possible it looks like we need to rework our entire workflow plan.

As Adobe CameraRAW does not have a BM Film preset you will have to make your own.

One way you could try is by shooting a colour chart in ProRes film and in RAW. Then opening the RAW in ACR and attempting to match the colours by eye. This should get you close. Save that as your own Film preset. Apply that to all your clips as your starting point and only adjust the white balance exposure from there.

I'm also bumping this old threat for similar reasons. I want to be able to use BMCC's RAW DNG in AE in a log format exactly the same as the one processed in Resolve. Correct me if I'm wrong. If you want to do a VFX shot, you ideally finish it in log/flat look, and ideally the same log look as the grading software would provide. So when you get to color grading, you can work with the same color base than the rest of your timeline/clips. I'm searching for a way to pipeline this in my AE workflow, but I have yet to find a preset that works for CameraRAW. As Adam suggested, you can photograph a chart and eye guess it, but I'm not sure it is the most reliable option (colorwise speaking). Let's say you want to copy a color look from clips from the same scene, you might end up with a color/contrast shift in grading using this technique. I think the ideal would be to generate a reversed bmcc-to-rec709 LUT from resolve (or else) and apply it to the saturated RAW footage in AE by using LUTbuddy for say. I'm looking into it and if I find solution, I'll post it here. Anyone has a solution speak up!

... If you want to do a VFX shot, you ideally finish it in log/flat look, and ideally the same log look as the grading software would provide. So when you get to color grading, you can work with the same color base than the rest of your timeline/clips. ...

There are many different workflows for VFX, but yes, most of the time VFX is done before final grading. For this we'd want to keep the same flat look, and need a preset for ACR in AE. Blackmagic hasn't released one though, and I don't think it will happen. Currently if you want to do VFX I'd say the best approach is to render DPXs from Resolve, or OpenEXRs, but obviously this is a pain if storage is in short supply as you're doubling your footage, and DPXs are about 4x the size of the DNG files.

This is generally considered the best workflow though. During the 3 years I worked at a VFX house, flat colored DPX and EXRs are generally what we'd get to work with. On rare occasion, for small projects, we'd get MOVs or TGAs or TIFFs, but our I/O department always converted them to DPXs for us.

Nonetheless, this is my workflow when I need to do VFX and color is pertinent. This also allows you to bring your footage into Nuke without messing up your color workflow, if you had any desire to do that .

I did find a Flat preset for ACR, but it was made for both Magic Lantern AND BMPCC (Here's a link to that EDIT: Ok.... why cant we post links? Google for "tihon bmfilm" second result, scroll down near the bottom and a user named tihon posts links to them.). Its not perfect by a long stretch. But for one-off shots it can get you in a good starting place. The best approach would be export DPXs, and import both those and the DNGs into AE and work to get them as close as possible. I'll be doing this for my upcoming project and hopefully be able to make a better ACR preset for all of you if no one beats me to it.

Short of making your own preset and living with its imperfections, or converting to DPX/EXR and sacrificing storage space, you wont achieve a perfect "BMPCC Film Preset" Flat look, unless BlackMagic helps us out and works with Adobe to make a preset for us, or make ACR natively support this look.

Exporting DPX had slipped my mind. Makes sense. Color is going to be 100% accurate. Storage is not a problem.

Thanks for the tip!

No problem! Send me some drives as thanks XD.

I.. really need more storage...

EDIT: Ok.... why cant we post links?

Because you are new on the forum. It's to stop spammers posting links to kitchens.

... If you want to do a VFX shot, you ideally finish it in log/flat look, and ideally the same log look as the grading software would provide. So when you get to color grading, you can work with the same color base than the rest of your timeline/clips. ...

There are many different workflows for VFX, but yes, most of the time VFX is done before final grading. For this we'd want to keep the same flat look, and need a preset for ACR in AE. Blackmagic hasn't released one though, and I don't think it will happen. Currently if you want to do VFX I'd say the best approach is to render DPXs from Resolve, or OpenEXRs, but obviously this is a pain if storage is in short supply as you're doubling your footage, and DPXs are about 4x the size of the DNG files.

This is generally considered the best workflow though. During the 3 years I worked at a VFX house, flat colored DPX and EXRs are generally what we'd get to work with. On rare occasion, for small projects, we'd get MOVs or TGAs or TIFFs, but our I/O department always converted them to DPXs for us.

Nonetheless, this is my workflow when I need to do VFX and color is pertinent. This also allows you to bring your footage into Nuke without messing up your color workflow, if you had any desire to do that .

I did find a Flat preset for ACR, but it was made for both Magic Lantern AND BMPCC (Here's a link to that EDIT: Ok.... why cant we post links? Google for "tihon bmfilm" second result, scroll down near the bottom and a user named tihon posts links to them.). Its not perfect by a long stretch. But for one-off shots it can get you in a good starting place. The best approach would be export DPXs, and import both those and the DNGs into AE and work to get them as close as possible. I'll be doing this for my upcoming project and hopefully be able to make a better ACR preset for all of you if no one beats me to it.

Short of making your own preset and living with its imperfections, or converting to DPX/EXR and sacrificing storage space, you wont achieve a perfect "BMPCC Film Preset" Flat look, unless BlackMagic helps us out and works with Adobe to make a preset for us, or make ACR natively support this look.

Hi! It`s me) Yep, my ACR preset was good for ML raw. Today i have a really nice preset for blackmagic pocket camera. It works in ACR8 and make an image quite the same as film-log in Resolve. Check the image:


https://yadi.sk/d/TWLhMLeiTUCLF - preset for ACR8 "bmpcc raw to film-log. xml" Presets folder is: C:\Users\UserName\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\Settings

If you like it, send me a message.
Thanks.

Hello! I´m afraid that this "bmpcc raw to film-log. xml" is not for BMCC...
I open ACR8, load my DNG, apply this preset and in After Effects apply a LUT and... the DNG´S it´s more washed!!!

Hi! It`s me) Yep, my ACR preset was good for ML raw. Today i have a really nice preset for blackmagic pocket camera. It works in ACR8 and make an image quite the same as film-log in Resolve. Check the image:


https://yadi.sk/d/TWLhMLeiTUCLF - preset for ACR8 "bmpcc raw to film-log. xml" Presets folder is: C:\Users\UserName\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\Settings

If you like it, send me a message.
Thanks.

Thanks so much tihon! Looks great.

Hello,

It seems you guys have helped the others but I am still pretty confused. When my CinemaDNG files are imported into resolve they are not the washed out/flat/desaturated look that all of the other tutorials and examples online show of imported Cinema DNG log files, but rather they look the actual color and tone of how the set looked that day, not the gray/flat look that was recorded on camera. What I am worried is, is that I recorded the film as Cinema DNG files but not as Log files, is that even possible?

I know earlier you guys explained that you can throw an LUT unto the footage if I want the flat look, I don't necessarily want the flat look, what I want is to know the raw file are at there most basic level with no kind of filters or anything added at all, which I am scared that there has been.

Sorry if I don't make sense. I am really knew to forums

As in I don't want them processed flat, I want them to start off flat, and then I can change them from there.

Hello!
Actually I don't want to have flat look at my starting point. The better idea is to get starting look as it was in real life by your eye. Am I right?
Everybody wants flat look. I don't understand it. The main idea of log look is more detailed shadows and less clipped highlights. So by my taste I need a picture very close to real, not flat and not desaturated. But with good shadows and capable of highlight recovery. RAW DNG doing that just fine!
When you starts from flat you need to tweak it more. You need to shift pixels more and more from starting point. For shadows you shifting pixels lower and lower and for highlights higher. Your image is stretching in the middle. As a result you can get nice shadows and good highlights but stretched middle tones. Now tell me please where is the skintons placed? In the middle! And you stretched it a lot when using flat starting point. After that you need to boost saturation. It boosts noise too. So you picture starts to look like "steroid babe".

But BMD utilizes another approach. They uses not S-log gamma. BMD RAW and Film gamma looks like this:


And this is very smart. Because when you tweaking RAW you compressing shadows (and makes noise compressed and smoother) leaving midtones almost as it was and stretching the highlights. Bad for highlights not for shadows. Because highlights almost contains no noise. So stretching it not a big deal and can be notified in very rare cases (flares and light leaks). But you getting good smooth shadows and darks because of compressed noisefloor.

Yesterday I had tested 800 ISO that way. As a result picture at Film preset and 800 ISO looks cleaner than picture in Video mode at 400 ISO. I mean Prores of course.
As for RAW it doesnt matter what ISO you set in camera.

Adobe is the author of the DNG raw file format. Raw files from many cameras are interpreted by the Adobe CameraRaw Plug-In.
http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/camera-raw.html.
DNG files from some other cameras can also be interpreted after conversion using the Adobe DNG Converter. http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5854

Blackmagic unfortunately appears nowhere in these lists!

On my iMac in \Users\User Name\Library\Application Support\Adobe\CameraRaw\Settings I can only see one .xmp file "Iceskating201312.xmp" - no idea where this came from but it appears as a choice in AfterEffects CC 2014.

Now has anyone a concrete suggestion as to how to avoid my imported DNG sequences being displayed by the CameraRaw in After Effects CC 2014 as if they were processed by a REC.709 LUT?

Hello,

It seems you guys have helped the others but I am still pretty confused. When my CinemaDNG files are imported into resolve they are not the washed out/flat/desaturated look

As has been noted above, when you bring in DNG files into Resolve for the first time, they look bright and highly saturated -- this is Resolve interpreting the raw data.

In most cases, the best approach for color grading is to go to the raw tab in the "color" panel, select "clip" and then "BMD Film" (not rec 709) as initial settings. When you do that, the clip will look flat and washed-out, just like ProRes Film footage brought into Resolve -- a good place to start grading.

This is covered in the manual.

Hello,

It seems you guys have helped the others but I am still pretty confused. When my CinemaDNG files are imported into resolve they are not the washed out/flat/desaturated look

As has been noted above, when you bring in DNG files into Resolve for the first time, they look bright and highly saturated -- this is Resolve interpreting the raw data.

In most cases, the best approach for color grading is to go to the raw tab in the "color" panel, select "clip" and then "BMD Film" (not rec 709) as initial settings. When you do that, the clip will look flat and washed-out, just like ProRes Film footage brought into Resolve -- a good place to start grading.

This is covered in the manual.

Do you know if there is a way to set up Resolve so BMD Film is the default setting for interpreting DNG's?

Hello,

It seems you guys have helped the others but I am still pretty confused. When my CinemaDNG files are imported into resolve they are not the washed out/flat/desaturated look

As has been noted above, when you bring in DNG files into Resolve for the first time, they look bright and highly saturated -- this is Resolve interpreting the raw data.

In most cases, the best approach for color grading is to go to the raw tab in the "color" panel, select "clip" and then "BMD Film" (not rec 709) as initial settings. When you do that, the clip will look flat and washed-out, just like ProRes Film footage brought into Resolve -- a good place to start grading.

This is covered in the manual.

Do you know if there is a way to set up Resolve so BMD Film is the default setting for interpreting DNG's?

On the home screen (where you select your projects), create a project with the settings you want. Frame rate, resolution, RAW processing, etc. Then save that project as a template. Then set that project to be your default project from your preferences.

Check page 63 of the manual.

All the answers relate to DaVinci Resolve, I need a solution for After Effects!

This thread might help:
viewtopic.php?t=29599

All the answers relate to DaVinci Resolve, I need a solution for After Effects!

Why don't you want to use this preset for ACR as a starting point:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ua1me2li7x4gu ... B.xmp?dl=0

Just drop it into your:
...\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\Settings

And load it as a preset in ACR.

It not 100% Film but for a starting point looks very close to it.

Dont forget to correct the color balance, tint and exposure.

P.S. This preset was made for 4K camera.