BMCC out of phace

Nick has it right here.

I think what people aren't happy with it actually only a LUT, specifically BMD's "VIDEO" LUT, which is quite separate to the way the camera can actually record colours, especially when you use RAW or ProRes FILM.

jb

Yup. I'd love to see an updated LUT for the video mode in camera and for Resolve.

Sorry.

But that's the DEAL with a RAW CINEMA camera like this.

It's not designed to be a camera that instantly produces pictures that are *ready to go*. If you need that you should probably look at another camera system. You want a more ENG style mentality.

There are already plenty of LUT's people have designed for systems like Resolve and FCP though and surely that's a good thing.

You're still going to find though that LUT's, no matter who makes them, still need to be tweaked and adjusted. There's no magic bullet LUT that makes things look good in all situations. Colour correction is a highly subjective thing. Contrast and LOOK are subjective. Plus everyone, especially men, perceive colour slightly differently. It's not like there's a *RIGHT* answer for everything that will work in all situations.

jb

Sorry.

But that's the DEAL with a RAW CINEMA camera like this.

It's not designed to be a camera that instantly produces pictures that are *ready to go*. If you need that you should probably look at another camera system. You want a more ENG style mentality.

There are already plenty of LUT's people have designed for systems like Resolve and FCP though and surely that's a good thing.

You're still going to find though that LUT's, no matter who makes them, still need to be tweaked and adjusted. There's no magic bullet LUT that makes things look good in all situations. Colour correction is a highly subjective thing. Contrast and LOOK are subjective. Plus everyone, especially men, perceive colour slightly differently. It's not like there's a *RIGHT* answer for everything that will work in all situations.

jb

Hi John,
I agree 100% percent. The thing is that (and probably I'm not doing it right) I use the LUT as the starting point for my grade and than build it with nodes. So when I apply the BMCC LUT red becomes orange and than I have to deal with this. Again I am fairly new to Resolve but I think the logic is that you need a good (clean) starting point in order to make your grade. And again the thing is that we just need someone from BMD to make a statement about this issue, because here is the situation in my opinion:
If there is problem with the LUT, then all cameras should be affected since it's suppose to be the same one used it all BMCC's, if there are only few cameras that are affected, then there is a different kind of problem. Am I alone in this?

Cheers,

Milen

[CaptainHook]

Speaking of LUTs etc, considering that current BMCC hardware is not capable of using custom LUTs (as John has said), anyone got any suggestions for a LUT box that's portable and doesn't cost the same or more than a pocket cam?

I was pretty interested in BMD's HDlink Pro LUT box until i found out that it's distorting LUT transforms. I'm basing that of posts Steve Shaw made on his forum (which i won't link to since its against the rules here) but here's his post dated may 2012:

At present, there is a major problem with the HDlink Pro LUT box.

This problem has been reported to BMD some time back, but as yet no solution has been presented.

The problem is that when a LUT is loaded into the HDlink Pro it is badly distorted, causing the output to be inaccurate to the actual intentions of the LUT.

This makes the HDlink Pro box unusable for any LUT application.

If BMD find a solution to this problem I will post it here.

BMD and Kris apparently acknowledged the problem but i'm yet to find any evidence that it was fixed.

You'll find that thread very easily by searching for "HDlink Steve Shaw".

If that's the case, that's a real shame as i was interested in getting one. So, any other suggestions?

I was pretty interested in BMD's HDlink Pro LUT box until i found out that it's distorting LUT transforms. I'm basing that of posts Steve Shaw made on his forum

I personally don't think the issue with the HDLink Pro is as serious as Steve makes out. I would not use one in line for any actually recording that was to be used for finishing (the LUTs are only 17x17x17 apart from anything else) but as a low cost monitoring LUT box, which is what it is intended to be, I find it perfectly acceptable.

Is it 100% perfect? No. And there may possibly be a case against using one as part of a critical calibration setup in a grading suite, but for applying monitoring LUTs in the uncontrolled environment of a shoot I think it's more than adequate.

[CaptainHook]

Is it 100% perfect? No. And there may possibly be a case against using one as part of a critical calibration setup in a grading suite, but for applying monitoring LUTs in the uncontrolled environment of a shoot I think it's more than adequate.

Good to hear, thanks Nick. I take it you use one? Acceptable for making decisions on set in your opinion then? That's good. As you say Steve's posts are quite alarmist so i assumed the image was so badly distorted in terms of colour etc that it was indeed 'unusable' for ANY LUT application. But if i can make decisions on set with a custom LUT from resolve, and record dailies/rushes simultaneously on my hyperdeck shuttle it's worth a look - i just wish i could get filenames onto the shuttle from the bmcc or atleast set custom filename conventions with it. Wish the hdlink was portable and could be mounted on the camera rig too but the price is decent so ..

I can't agree entirely with Nick. Yea it' easy when you are a LUT and workflow ninja and you tweak your own plug-ins but for us ordinary users so far the only solution is creating workarounds like using Alexa LUT and additional CC in Resolve and the results are not very satisfying.

Thank you for the complement! But it's not like I use my ninja skills to create stuff just for my own personal use. I make a living by either creating bespoke solutions for people, or else if something has wide appeal then I try and turn it into a product people can buy. I guess that makes me a mercenary ninja!

I will shortly update the demo version of my plugin to have the matrix control shown in my screen grabs. I hope to release the plugin very soon. But if it is not ready I plan to at least put out a public beta so everybody can try an un-watermarked version.

PS Nick can you create a custom LUT for Resolve like the one from Hook? It will be very nice!

Before I released a custom LUT like that for sale, I would want to have tested it on a wide range of images from a number of different cameras to check for inconsistency. I don't even have a BMCC myself to test. But yes it is a possibility at some point.

Sorry.

But that's the DEAL with a RAW CINEMA camera like this.

It's not designed to be a camera that instantly produces pictures that are *ready to go*. If you need that you should probably look at another camera system. You want a more ENG style mentality.

jb

To me, it's also a stunning ProRes (or DnxHD) camera.

Don't get me wrong: I absolutely love the fact that I'm able to correct an image without immediately breaking it. The results amaze me every day. Shooting super16 and later RED or Alexa were the highlights of a year for me - and I can do that now... everyday.

However, this camera has a -factory- built in video mode. And I do like to use that sometimes.

I think that a little tweaking of the video mode would do for most people.

As mentioned above, I have now put out an updated version of the watermarked demo plugin. It adds the functionality from the current beta (as shown in my screen grab further back in this thread) to the demo.

Try switching of the colour matrix check box, raising the saturation slider (about 2.1 looks right to me) and look at the results with the saturation before/after LUT drop-down option to see which you prefer.

Nick does your LUT work on FCP7? I know of many people who still (like me) are not ready to shift to FCPX. Also I believe you say it works with RAW or ProRes Film, I wonder if it works with ProRes video because this is where the problem is most vivid.

Generally, it is shame that I have had BMCC for almost 5 months and I still do not trust it for good paying jobs simply we are not sure how colors and audio will turn out. That is why I started this threat.

In my option, the most cost effective way of getting this color issue taken care of would be to provide a custom white balance feature, even if it is the application of the good old trusted white paper style (ENG style). That way, users can choose any shade of white they want and those who, so far find it comfortable to use the preset settings can have their way.

Many of us artists shoot many diverse subject matter under some extreme lighting conditions especially when it comes to documentary filmmaking, therefore; a custom white balance can be really handy since not all the times people work with balanced lights.

I also believe that the reason BMD comes up with financial accessible tools for production is to reach as many customers as possible. In this context, it will even serve them well if this cinema camera suits the vast majority of people when it comes to color reproduction, therefore; streamlining workflow. This is the reason I think they offered ProRes video for those who are in a hurry to deliver within set time frame.

The truth is we are a variety of creative people and simply to say that this is the only way to go, it isn't the way to do things.

To me, it's also a stunning ProRes (or DnxHD) camera.

However, this camera has a -factory- built in video mode. And I do like to use that sometimes.

I think that a little tweaking of the video mode would do for most people.

You can of course shoot FILM and use a more preferred LUT like Captain Hook's or Nicks. I don't think it really adds much to the workflow. Some people even like using the ALEXA LUT in Resolve as a starting point.

VIDEO (REC 709) is there. It's not great but there are other options. I'm sure they'll get around to tweaking the LUT at some point. I only wanted to comment here to say that it's not really a *fault* with the camera, just that the LUT isn't ideal for some situations and there's ways to work around that. Yeah they could improve it, but there's also a big list of things to be done with the firmware as well.

jb

Nick does your LUT work on FCP7? I know of many people who still (like me) are not ready to shift to FCPX.

My original plugin is for FCP 7, but it is not the same as the FCP X version because the architectures of the two systems are very different. Try the demo version of the FCP 7 version on my website.

Also I believe you say it works with RAW or ProRes Film, I wonder if it works with ProRes video because this is where the problem is most vivid.

No. My plugin operates by transforming film mode material to video, and allowing adjustments while doing so. Video mode already has the colour matrix baked in.

In my option, the most cost effective way of getting this color issue taken care of would be to provide a custom white balance feature, even if it is the application of the good old trusted white paper style (ENG style). That way, users can choose any shade of white they want and those who, so far find it comfortable to use the preset settings can have their way.

I do not believe that white balance would address your concerns. A colour matrix is more than a white balance adjustment.

Is'n RAW supposed to be flat in colours? https://www.dropbox.com/s/44ppm3gqunv0h ... 000023.dng Here is an DNG file out of the camera. It looks more video to me.

Is'n RAW supposed to be flat in colours? https://www.dropbox.com/s/44ppm3gqunv0h ... 000023.dng Here is an DNG file out of the camera. It looks more video to me.

When you open DNGs in Resolve, it automatically applies the rec.709 colorspace to the clip. To get the flat image back, select the camera raw button beneath the clip timeline in the color tab. Switch decode to clip and then switch colorspace to BMD Film. You'll end up with something like this:

Blackmagic Cinema Camera_1_2013-06-22_1345_C0000_086400.jpg (157.16 KiB) Viewed 19041 times

When you create a new project, you can also change this in the settings so DNGs automatically use the BMD colorspace. Hope this helps.

Been trying a few of these LUTS. http://juanmelara.com.au/print-film-emu ... -download/

Is'n RAW supposed to be flat in colours? https://www.dropbox.com/s/44ppm3gqunv0h ... 000023.dng Here is an DNG file out of the camera. It looks more video to me.

When you open DNGs in Resolve, it automatically applies the rec.709 colorspace to the clip. To get the flat image back, select the camera raw button beneath the clip timeline in the color tab. Switch decode to clip and then switch colorspace to BMD Film. You'll end up with something like this:

Blackmagic Cinema Camera_1_2013-06-22_1345_C0000_086400.jpg

When you create a new project, you can also change this in the settings so DNGs automatically use the BMD colorspace. Hope this helps.

Thanks justinsch,
But then it seems that Photosop and After Effects also auto add rec.709 (?).
So to get the BMD Film I need to use Resolve?

So to get the BMD Film I need to use Resolve?

You can use other workflows like After Effects and Photoshop, but I'm not familiar with those workflows. I would assume there is a color matrix or color profile that you can turn off to get the flat image back. All the information is in the DNG but whatever program you use can translate it differently.

So to get the BMD Film I need to use Resolve?

You can use other workflows like After Effects and Photoshop, but I'm not familiar with those workflows. I would assume there is a color matrix or color profile that you can turn off to get the flat image back. All the information is in the DNG but whatever program you use can translate it differently.

Thanks for your answer justinsch, I'll try to find the flat profile in AE. But I also have to (must) learn Resolve.

I personally don't think the issue with the HDLink Pro is as serious as Steve makes out.

I disagree. From my own testing (profiling/calibrating and creating LUT which is loaded into Resolve) I get close to perfect Rec709 gamut and <1.0 delta E as verified by Lightspace. The moment I load this LUT to the HDLink Pro(?) there is a visible gamma shift and the blacks get noticeably lifted.

Seems that no-one from BMD wants to address this.

I personally don't think the issue with the HDLink Pro is as serious as Steve makes out.

I disagree. From my own testing (profiling/calibrating and creating LUT which is loaded into Resolve) I get close to perfect Rec709 gamut and <1.0 delta E as verified by Lightspace. The moment I load this LUT to the HDLink Pro(?) there is a visible gamma shift and the blacks get noticeably lifted.

Seems that no-one from BMD wants to address this.

What can I say? That doesn't tally with my experience on my own system with my HDLink Pro. I have 'scope grabs of the same LUT (converted appropriately) applied in Resolve and in the HDLink Pro, and they match to a degree of accuracy I am perfectly happy with for a LUT box used in the monitoring chain.

[CaptainHook]

I just hired an HDlink over the weekend to use on set for the split and loaded my LUT on it and it seemed to perform exactly how i expected/wanted. Getting the footage at home and applying the LUT looked the same as i could remember on set which is all i was after. Obviously far from scientific, but i just want to make better decisions on set based on image i can see and trust.

Me have the same problem. Red goes orange. Is there any update firmware to fix this? or this issue is an excuse?

Hi All,

First post here. Thought I could contribute to this thread as I've recently gotten in touch with BlackMagic regarding this issue.

Background; I purchased 02 x BMCC 2.5k, intended to shoot for greenscreen stuff. During a test shoot, noticed something very wrong. Talent was wearing a salmon coloured top, with blue jacket and brown pants. Lighted for 3200k in ProRes Video Mode. Everything was as the eye could see except the top turned orange.

As client was insistent on wardrobe being colour accurate, we shot the whole intended scenes and said we'll try to fix in post. After the shoot, it was harder than we imagined. As we had lit for tungsten, there was absolutely no way we could tweak the top to go back to the original salmon colour. It means pushing the reds which would mean the talent would look totally red! Thing is everything else in the scene was accurate; jacket was blue, pants were brown, skintone was natural.

I managed to head down to BlackMagic Singapore office and brought my two cameras with me. Couple of engineers tested the cameras and agreed there was something wrong. We tested with a set from the office and guess what? It had the same problem! Realised there was nothing they could do to help me (swopping the cameras was not even on the agenda as all BMCC cameras had the same issue).

Few days later, received an email from one of the engineers:

Hi Hanafi,
Thank you for coming down to our office to verify the issue you have encountered.
I have received a reply from our product manager for BMCC. The developer team is aware of this issue. It has to do with the film to REC709 conversion. They are working on it now and it should be fixed in the next release of firmware. However, the release date may not be in time for your shoot. I would suggest you use your other camera for this shoot. I will inform you once the new firmware is released.
I apologize for the inconvenient caused.

So long story short, they said they will fix the problem with the next firmware update, which they hinted to me will be together with the release date of the BMCC 4k and Pocket Camera launch date. Highly likely earliest end of July.

Hope this helps everyone.

Hi Hanafi, glad to hear the news! im a bit frutrated about this issue and almots just give an excuse to blackmagic design. Please keep posted Hanafi im from Indonesia your neighborhood haha.

regards,

Hi Hanafi, glad to hear the news! im a bit frutrated about this issue and almots just give an excuse to blackmagic design. Please keep posted Hanafi im from Indonesia your neighborhood haha.

regards,

No problemo! Will keep everyone in the loop.

In the meantime, from initial tests, recording in ProRes FIlm Mode seems to tone down the orange-ness but still not accurate. For me, client wants to see the colours on my preview monitors so I have to shoot in VIdeo Mode.

Cheers.

No problemo! Will keep everyone in the loop.

In the meantime, from initial tests, recording in ProRes FIlm Mode seems to tone down the orange-ness but still not accurate. For me, client wants to see the colours on my preview monitors so I have to shoot in VIdeo Mode.

Cheers.

I always set my LCD to Video mode even when shooting on Film to make it easier monitoring the white balance. This issue was occured in my latest project. The cast using a red hat and trouser and i was suprised looking at my LCD the red went orange. I made a few change on WB and still didnt get the accurate color. i hope this will be fixed as soon as possible without throwing back my bmcc to the distributor. Anyway thanks a lot. cheers

No problemo! Will keep everyone in the loop.

In the meantime, from initial tests, recording in ProRes FIlm Mode seems to tone down the orange-ness but still not accurate. For me, client wants to see the colours on my preview monitors so I have to shoot in VIdeo Mode.

Cheers.

I always set my LCD to Video mode even when shooting on Film to make it easier monitoring the white balance. This issue was occured in my latest project. The cast using a red hat and trouser and i was suprised looking at my LCD the red went orange. I made a few change on WB and still didnt get the accurate color. i hope this will be fixed as soon as possible without throwing back my bmcc to the distributor. Anyway thanks a lot. cheers

I just noticed this problem today when filming a red pool table. I hope the new firmware actually fixes it!

I've also had a number of issues with the color rendition: on the black magic cinema camera. And this is across all recording modes. The most common problem that I've had is a severe shift from yellow/greens that become red/browns and are not easily fixable with a LUT. They often require tweaking using hue versus hue curves - which can be very post time intensive.

The worst case I had was a shot turning entirely magenta brown - And even using raw color correction in resolve I could not bring the colors back to a normal pallete

Just yesterday I also had what I understand is called the black sun problem - which is where an area of extreme overexposure turns black like a cigarette burn. John Brawley told me this is not unheard of.

Furthermore because of the lack of a shutter SPEED option there is actually no way in a 60 Hz environment to shoot 25fps and reduce fluorescent flicker. The flicker "safe" shutter angles of 75/150/225/300 are not options on the BMCC. I've spoken with BMD support and they've noted this and have said they'll take it seriously in future revisions.

After extensive testing - like Julius I'm not entirely sure you can use this camera for professional production. Although Marco Solorio would disagree on this, and I really respect his opinion.

And like almost everyone on this forum I am a big fan of black magic design and really want the camera to work. I'm also aware that we're all "early adopters" and that comes with some risk.

But the number of unpleasant surprises I've had while using it is not one of the things I love about the camera. The color issues especially surprise me because BMD is behind the industry-leading color grading package (Resolve) which they have rather graciously provided us at either zero or low cost depending on your version. But Resolve cant fix all of BMCCs quirks.

I'm just posting this because the vast majority of the time the BMCC works very well and I've read on forums that people have all kinds of unique and strange issues that often aren't taken very seriously by other posters. And it's not just a broken unit sometimes.

If anyone does come up with a solution for the color shifting, for the black sun problem, or for the fluorescent flicker problem - I'd love to know any solutions and please send me a message.

And despite all that stuff: thanks to blackmagic for trying so hard to put a truly affordable cinema camera in our hands. Despite any problems,
they ushered in a new era with the BMCC.

[CaptainHook]

The most common problem that I've had is a severe shift from yellow/greens that become red/browns and are not easily fixable with a LUT. They often require tweaking using hue versus hue curves - which can be very post time intensive.

The worst case I had was a shot turning entirely magenta brown - And even using raw color correction in resolve I could not bring the colors back to a normal pallete

Hi, do you have an example DNG frame you could share? Just to be clear, you weren't using any ND filters? And if you were, they were IRND? Thanks.

I'm on the road on a shoot - but will happily dig something out and post when I'm back at the studio. It's happened with both VariNDs, 4x4 Tiffen .9s. I don't know actually if the red/brown shift has happened ND free. Having said that, there has never been a similar shift using the exact same setup on my many other bodies. But - I will test - and I appreciate the solution.

I know people love your LUT as well, I have my own recipe (using Arri2Rec709 plus FilmConvert used inside Resolve through TrimLuts) but I'll give yours a kick too.

Cheers!

[CaptainHook]

It's happened with both VariNDs, 4x4 Tiffen .9s. I don't know actually if the red/brown shift has happened ND free. Having said that, there has never been a similar shift using the exact same setup on my many other bodies.

The BMCC is very sensitive to IR, prob more so than other cameras. Canon DSLRs for example have very strong IR protection/filters on the sensors it seems, where as the BMCC has very little.

This video is worth a watch:

Fantastic video - thanks so much for pointing me to it. While I don't think IR is the whole problem, I think it might be a contributing factor. I'll try some Formatt IR glass rather than my usual Schneider glass and see what result i get. Its funny because I use a lot of Sony bodies and am used to correcting for minor blue/green casts - I never thought "earthy" shifts would bother me.

Thanks so much for pointing me to that link.

You don't have any advice for "the black sun problem" up your sleeve do you? Other than a Resolve tracking fix or clamping down on exposure in field?

And again - thanks for being such a contributing member to the broader BMCC community. I've read a lot of your posts on different subjects and you've helped a lot of people along.

Fantastic video - thanks so much for pointing me to it. While I don't think IR is the whole problem, I think it might be a contributing factor. I'll try some Formatt IR glass rather than my usual Schneider glass and see what result i get. Its funny because I use a lot of Sony bodies and am used to correcting for minor blue/green casts - I never thought "earthy" shifts would bother me.

Thanks so much for pointing me to that link.

You don't have any advice for "the black sun problem" up your sleeve do you? Other than a Resolve tracking fix or clamping down on exposure in field?

And again - thanks for being such a contributing member to the broader BMCC community. I've read a lot of your posts on different subjects and you've helped a lot of people along.

[CaptainHook]

You don't have any advice for "the black sun problem" up your sleeve do you? Other than a Resolve tracking fix or clamping down on exposure in field?

Other than tracking in Resolve/Nuke/etc, i would just hope and be patient that a firmware solution will come that addresses the problem. Cheers.

I found this thread in the general FAQ and noticed that there was no official response on orangey reds in video mode. Any update on this?

+1 very interested in the current solution

I was using Hue v Hue in Resolve to address this. It relied on having a colour chart in shot viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17335

After testing the effect of the various film emulation stocks in filmConvert with a colour chart and vectorscope, I find applying the Fujicolor Pro 400H look corrects the colours. Red now looks like red and it's a quick fix.

Actually, what I'd like to be able to do is apply the Fujicolor Pro 400H look to adjust the colours, but use a node to apply it to just the colour within the image without taking on the changes to the gamma/curve/contrast. Would anyone be able to tell me how to create a node to do that?

Actually, what I'd like to be able to do is apply the Fujicolor Pro 400H look to adjust the colours, but use a node to apply it to just the colour within the image without taking on the changes to the gamma/curve/contrast. Would anyone be able to tell me how to create a node to do that?

Couldn't you open the .cube file in that LUT editor (the name escapes me) and just flatten out the curve and save out a new LUT? As an alternative, can you edit a .cube file using a text editor or XML parser?

[CaptainHook]

Actually, what I'd like to be able to do is apply the Fujicolor Pro 400H look to adjust the colours, but use a node to apply it to just the colour within the image without taking on the changes to the gamma/curve/contrast. Would anyone be able to tell me how to create a node to do that?

Right click on the node with the LUT and change the colour space to YUV, then uncheck Enable channel 1.

Many thanks CaptainHook

CaptainHook, I understood the principle of working in YUV to achieve this in a simple way - it didn't have the effect I was expecting as the chrominance has changed too.

By the way, I'm printing the Resolve manual as I type to try and learn better for myself!

[CaptainHook]

Sorry i thought you were using a LUT rather than an OFX plugin. You can do this in Film Convert itself, just pull down "Curve" to 0 as well as Grain.

I wasn't 100% sure what 'curve' was doing - thought it may just affect the character of the curve, if that makes sense. Great, so all the way to the left will affect the chrominance only...thanks again. Jim

Incidentally, while discussing accuracy, it's important to know where the black level sits and how it differs in film and video dynamic range settings. I plugged my BMPC 4K to a broadcast grade 1 monitor and scope last week and learned:

In film dynamic range: It clips at 0.65v - not straight line in film mode - some sort of knee (although the image here shows a pretty straight clip)? And Black level is at 20 millivolts (sat up).

In video mode clipped white is at 0.71v, which is broadcast spec / what a HD broadcast camera would do, but black level is slightly crushed.

There are scopes in Resolve, but the information isn't displayed in this way, which confuses me a little when it comes to comparisons.