URSA 4.6K Footage

Hi, on this page you can find some footage I shot with the URSA 4.6K

Great little film once again Captain Hook. Very beautifully shot & color corrected.

One of the Blackmagic Reps was saying they (Blackmagic) custom designed the 4.6K sensor:

Will Canon and Zeiss Primes handle that sensor without vignetting?

I am not aware of Zeiss, but since I have the Canon CN-E primes this much I am aware: Canon Primes are designed for full frame sensors & have a good 4K resolution capabilities. I have used them on the Sony A7s without any issues. Specs for comparison:

Sony A7s (35mm sensor: 35.60mm x 23.80mm)
URSA Mini (4.6K) Super35 sensor at 25.34mm x 14.25mm

I would expect them to not have any vignetting issues with the URSA Mini, the image circle will cover the URSA mini (4.6K) sensor comfortably.

CFast cards are still $500, you'll need like 10 of them to shoot anything other than your dog in the backyard... What do you get, 3-4 minutes on a 128gb card? You might need 20!

What do you get, 3-4 minutes on a 128gb card? You might need 20!

Uh? On the current 4K Production Camera it's about 10 minutes 4K RAW CinemaDNG (depending on the content) on a 128GB SSD... so in 4.6K it should be about 8.5 minutes, but if you use the new 4:1 lossy compressed RAW that the new cameras seem to offer you should be able to record a good 30 minutes on a 128gb card. Not too shabby me thinks...

I forgot about the compression... My interest would be mostly slow motion, otherwise I'd keep my BMCC.

Very intriguing footage.

Can anyone confirm that the 15 stops of dynamic rage are still true for global shutter mode?

I've shot 5-6 hours of footage with one card all day long. Just need a USB 3.0 laptop, card reader, and drive. It takes 11 minutes to dump 120GB. Super simple.

Very intriguing footage.

Can anyone confirm that the 15 stops of dynamic rage are still true for global shutter mode?

Kyle, Grant Petty has said in an interview at NAB 2015, the global shutter does reduce the dynamic range compared to the rolling shutter. If the rolling shutter is 15 stops, it may be 13.5 or thereabouts with global shutter. May depend upon how much the processor is chilled.

Rick Lang
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My question is does this camera have an OLPF to handle moire/aliasing and an IR filter built in? Moire and having to bother with an IR filter were my only image related complaints about the original BMCC.

My question is does this camera have an OLPF to handle moire/aliasing and an IR filter built in? Moire and having to bother with an IR filter were my only image related complaints about the original BMCC.

I've had a lot of problems with moire on the pocket. Been debating that mosaic filter that's always backordered. But that's another $400.

Very intriguing footage.

Can anyone confirm that the 15 stops of dynamic rage are still true for global shutter mode?

There will be a hit to DR.

The full range is only available in RS mode, BUT the integration time on RS is actually even faster so I think most people will shoot RS unless they are doing VFX type things where GS is crucial.

JB

Also, when GS is really needed, the lighting doesn't really call for high DR, at least that has been my experience.

It's plain good to have both.

Very intriguing footage.

Can anyone confirm that the 15 stops of dynamic rage are still true for global shutter mode?

There will be a hit to DR.

The full range is only available in RS mode, BUT the integration time on RS is actually even faster so I think most people will shoot RS unless they are doing VFX type things where GS is crucial.

JB

How much better would you say the RS speed is on this new sensor when compared to the BMPCC John?

Any idea how much of a hit GS will give the DR? It couldn't be any lower in terms of DR than the original 4K sensor right?

Any idea how much of a hit GS will give the DR? It couldn't be any lower in terms of DR than the original 4K sensor right?

It's early days and I really hate saying absolute numbers.

The integration time in RS mode is noticeably better.

The DR in GS mode still has more DR than the current 4K.

JB

Any idea how much of a hit GS will give the DR? It couldn't be any lower in terms of DR than the original 4K sensor right?

It's early days and I really hate saying absolute numbers.

The integration time in RS mode is noticeably better.

The DR in GS mode still has more DR than the current 4K.

JB

Absolutely understand. I wasn't expecting any exact numbers. Good to hear and thanks!

I will hit the pre-order button right now if I can get any kind of confirmation that the noise in low-light is grainy!
I trust the footage to an extent (it looks GREAT!), but I don't know...the FPN on the BM4k scared me away when I rented it.

If the URSA Mini has nice, grainy noise...I think it's just about the perfect camera. wowzers.

Hi, must say I like the DR, images look really organic unlike other digital cine cameras. Thank u for the test. Am definitely very tempted to pre-order one right now, just not sure which mount I should be getting. Wondering what glasses you shot the footages with, Captain Hook?

Thanks for the answers guys.

Now Id just love to hear the native ISO, and how the stops are distributed from there.

VERY cool camera. wow.

you can witch between global and rolling shutter for higher frame rates.

Well, that's bloody witch-crafty, isn't it?

[CaptainHook]

Wondering what glasses you shot the footages with, Captain Hook?

Most of it was the Sigma 18-35/1.8 Art, and a few shots the Sigma 50/1.4 Art.

Wondering what glasses you shot the footages with, Captain Hook?

Most of it was the Sigma 18-35/1.8 Art, and a few shots the Sigma 50/1.4 Art.

wow, they looked great!

Which lens was used for the drummer?

[CaptainHook]

I used both since i had a little more time and could swap while filming my friend on drums, don't remember if both made the edit but for sure the 18-35/1.8 would be in there.

when i click the link to the footage it takes me to the black magic ursa home page? Whereabouts is the footage please?

Thanks.

Andrew - If you scroll down a bit - its there

Captain Hook -

The sigma art lenses. do the auto functions work well on these lenses?

How would you say the tamron 24-70mm compares to the sigma art zoom?

Also have you tried any Samyang / Rokinon primes out and what are your thoughts to these? (i know they have decoupled aperture and settings)

I was looking at the art lenses from sigma and then after watching some comparison reviews thought the tamron might be better, but the sigma ones may not have been the art lenses in the review.

Are the sigma art full frame?

Any advice before I buy my kit would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

Captain Hook or John Brawley,

I have seen the footage and I am pleased. However, I would like to know, in either of your opinions, how does the image quality of the sensor in the 4.6K compare to the BMCC and the BMPC?

When Blackmagic first released the Production Camera 4K they were adamant on vast change in the sensor, thus calling it a production camera. So in terms of the "cinema" look of the original 2.5K VS the "production" look of the original 4K production camera, how does the 4.6K URSA Mini stack up?

Best,

Hundo

I have a couple of questions about the new sensor:

1: Does the film (log) dynamic range still give a nice flat image to grade (like the BMCC 2.5K or the Sony FS55), or has it become more contrasty like the BMPC 4K?

2: The specs page on the URSA / URSA Mini says it records in the following formats:
"Lossless CinemaDNG RAW, RAW 3:1 and RAW 4:1 with film dynamic range at 4608 x 2592, 4096 x 2304, 4608 x 1920, 3072 x 2560, and 2048 x 1152. Apple ProRes 3840 x 2160 and 1920 x 1080 with either film or video dynamic range."
Are these specs correct? we can film RAW 2K? Not just limited to 4K/4.6K?

3: Finally, are we just limited to windowed recording for HD - 3K, or can we do the typical downscaling as well (Such as on the BMPC4K)? And if we can choose to downscale, what affect does that have on Frame Rates?

Thanks!

I'm also interested to hear what CaptainHook would rate the USABLE dynamic range at?

As we all know, claimed and "measures" DR is often different from the usable DR.

you can witch between global and rolling shutter for higher frame rates.

Well, that's bloody witch-crafty, isn't it?

Blumming S key on my keyboard need a clean.

I'm also interested to hear what CaptainHook would rate the USABLE dynamic range at?

As we all know, claimed and "measures" DR is often different from the usable DR.

Captain Hook has commented previously that the 4.6K sensor seemed to add a full stop in the highlights and a full stop in the shadows compared to the BMPCC.

Rick Lang
Sent using Tapatalk HD

I'm also interested to hear what CaptainHook would rate the USABLE dynamic range at?

As we all know, claimed and "measures" DR is often different from the usable DR.

Captain Hook has commented previously that the 4.6K sensor seemed to add a full stop in the highlights and a full stop in the shadows compared to the BMPCC.

Rick Lang
Sent using Tapatalk HD

Ah, thank you. That's excellent news. I'm sure the image soars.

I can only hope that we still get a nice FLAT log image, much like the original BMCC.

Ah, thank you. That's excellent news. I'm sure the image soars.

I can only hope that we still get a nice FLAT log image, much like the original BMCC.

With that dynamic range, a flat image is pretty much certain. It's going to look like crap before you grade it

Rakesh, fortunately by the time people are shooting with the 4.6K sensor, Resolve 12 will be out with its easier management of raw. So quickly the images will look better in post.


Rick Lang
Sent using Tapatalk HD

3: Finally, are we just limited to windowed recording for HD - 3K, or can we do the typical downscaling as well (Such as on the BMPC4K)? And if we can choose to downscale, what affect does that have on Frame Rates?

It's both possible to use cropped sensor or to downscale the image but only for 1080p afaik.
The highest Framerates (150/160fps) are only possible in Window (=cropped sensor) Mode.

Rakesh, fortunately by the time people are shooting with the 4.6K sensor, Resolve 12 will be out with its easier management of raw. So quickly the images will look better in post.

While I completely agree with the value of being able to shoot in raw, I'm still quite certain that for most jobs, ProRes HQ in HD will be more than enough. I want raw for the the times when we want the absolute best, and have the time to deal with the extra data capacity in post. I still expect that most of my work will end up being in HD for quite a while, because most of the work in film isn't features. It's corporate communications, ads, etc... most of them intended for web-based delivery, where 4K doesn't add much value.

What's important however is that we'll have the raw option when we need it, but we won't be stuck with it when it's overkill.

And we're getting it for a bit less than the cost of an Alexa Mini, and not much more bulk and weight. (The Alexa Mini is actually quite cute, and not much bigger than an Epic body). Plus the Alexa mini doesn't include a screen. And it also uses CFast2. And has a 3.2K sensor.

We're getting our cake, we get to eat it, and we're getting a bargain. We're getting Alexa-like image quality that will annoy a LOT of Red dongles... I mean, Red "users" for FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Starting price for a Scarlet? $23k if you want it to be able to record something. So, that's the cost of an Ursa Mini + some CFast2 cards + 3 Zeiss Compact Primes and some bux left over.

And yet people are complaining.

Rakesh, I just have to disagree with the overall positive tone of your remarks about BMD's accomplishments. After all, ARRI has been working hard and come up with an ingenious approach to outputting 4K from a small sensor. I think BMD must be kicking themselves for spending millions of dollars on a sensor that shoots more than 4K with 15 stops of dynamic range, whereas if they'd only been as smart as ARRI, they would have saved a bundle.

Oh, well, we'll just have to make do with BMD's approach until next year, when they announce their camera is producing 6K output from a 4.6K sensor. Wait! They already can do that when you shoot with the anamorphic lenses, 6K CinemaScope too.

[WINKING FACE]

Rick Lang
Sent using Tapatalk HD

Oh, well, we'll just have to make do with BMD's approach until next year, when they announce their camera is producing 6K output from a 4.6K sensor. Wait! They already can do that when you shoot with the anamorphic lenses, 6K CinemaScope too.

That last part was a surprise to me. Grant didn't even mention that in the press conference (I should know, I was there photographing him, though I hadn't planned for that, so I only had a 35mm lens with me, and my editor had already written up the article with the specs ).

Anamorphic. Sweet. Makes me wish that I could afford to shoot with the new Arri or Cooke anamorphic lenses, which only cost around $90,000. I guess I'll have an excuse to try Letus' anamorphic adapter dealie this fall

[WINKING FACE]

Yeah, the Red dongles must be feeling sorry for us BMD shooters with our $5500 cameras and their stunning image quality... anyone remember the SGI vs Windows NT arguments back in the day when trueSpace and Ray Dream Studio gave us ray tracing on a hobbyist's budget?

Be ready for even more of that as the Red dongles try to protect their investment by using the Shot on Red marketing to their disadvantage! And to the embarrassment of the actual DPs who happen to also use Red cameras...

3: Finally, are we just limited to windowed recording for HD - 3K, or can we do the typical downscaling as well (Such as on the BMPC4K)? And if we can choose to downscale, what affect does that have on Frame Rates?

It's both possible to use cropped sensor or to downscale the image but only for 1080p afaik.
The highest Framerates (150/160fps) are only possible in Window (=cropped sensor) Mode.

But I wonder if we could do 60-90p with downscaled HD? If they can shoot 60p FULL RES, you would think that it would be able to do so at downscaled HD.

Ah, thank you. That's excellent news. I'm sure the image soars.

I can only hope that we still get a nice FLAT log image, much like the original BMCC.

With that dynamic range, a flat image is pretty much certain. It's going to look like crap before you grade it

I actually LOVE working with flat images. It makes me feel like I have complete control over the image.

I was a bit disappointed when the BMPC4K went with a more contrasted image.

CaptainHook do you have any thoughts on the highlight falloff of the new sensor?

I actually LOVE working with flat images. It makes me feel like I have complete control over the image.

I was a bit disappointed when the BMPC4K went with a more contrasted image.

I prefer it also. I suspect that the contrastier image was due to having less dynamic range.

Anyone know where I can get some URSA RAW footage.. to play with.. even if its just a single frame or two? All I've found is ProRes footage, but no CinemaDNG. I realize 4.6k footage isn't available yet so Im curious to push the boundaries on the old camera's footage just to see how it works.

Also, I did see somewhere that there are only 3 metadata adjustments for RAW footage -- color temp, saturation and exposure.. is that it?? Red's Raw footage has a whole gallery full of adjustments. Kind of seems like with CinemaDNG I have all this great RAW footage and no way to really tap into it? No FLUT, contrast or color curves or sharpness controls etc?

[CaptainHook]

Wondering what glasses you shot the footages with, Captain Hook?

Most of it was the Sigma 18-35/1.8 Art, and a few shots the Sigma 50/1.4 Art.

I should really add to this that i used a 4x4 Schneider Hollywood Blackmagic 1/4 for basically the whole video also, and used Formatt Firecrest ND's throughout.

Wondering what glasses you shot the footages with, Captain Hook?

Most of it was the Sigma 18-35/1.8 Art, and a few shots the Sigma 50/1.4 Art.

I should really add to this that i used a 4x4 Schneider Hollywood Blackmagic 1/4 for basically the whole video also, and used Formatt Firecrest ND's throughout.

Do you prefer the Formatt to the Hoya filters, Hook? They're about the same price and I'm looking to replace my Tiffens with something more neutral.

[CaptainHook]

I like the 4x4 Firecrest filters i have more, yes.

Captain Hook,

I have a set of Formatt HotMirror ND's do you think those will fair will with the 4.6k sensor or should I sell and get the new firecrest?

CaptainHook, have you noticed any FPN issues with the new sensor?

I'm hoping that this sensor will have less issues, since it was developed in-house.

Very intriguing footage.

Can anyone confirm that the 15 stops of dynamic rage are still true for global shutter mode?

There will be a hit to DR.

The full range is only available in RS mode, BUT the integration time on RS is actually even faster so I think most people will shoot RS unless they are doing VFX type things where GS is crucial.

JB

Would you happen to know how much faster it is? BMCC was horribly slow, making handheld kind of DSLRish.

The original RED Epic had a very fast readout, which made it somewhat unnoticeable. If its anywhere close to that, I think that RS would be the ideal scenario in most cases.

When are we going to see more footage from the 4.6k cameras? All we've seen so far is a highly compressed 1080p vimeo upload of CaptainHook's shots. It looks nice, but compressed 1080p by no means shows what this camera is or is not capable of. If Blackmagic wants people to wait and buy, it'd be nice to know what we're waiting for.

If Blackmagic wants people to wait and buy,

.....

then they would be wise to finish working on the image before publishing too many examples of early footage.

:-p