Could we finally have zoom without ctrl key?

Since new Fusion is still in beta, I hope there is still time to add option to be able to zoom in flow and viewer without holding down Ctrl key. We are in a century and a decade where it is no longer necessary to have user interaction with software complicated for no reason

Left Mouse Button + Middle

Fusion zoom/pan in 2D and 3D make tremendous use of the wacom tablet as well.

With tablet, you 'float' the pen to pan using mmb on pen, click down and drag from any spot to zoom etc..
With a mouse, I've found that it can be more difficult depending on the mouse. Mouse wheels tend to be more difficult. While it's hard to find a true 3button cad mouse these days, I've found that many gaming ones are actually pretty good for comp work.

+1 for the original request. There's a thread somewhere else where this has been discussed to death and has encountered fierce opposition from the "duh just use a wacom" crowd. But to reiterate:

Yes, Fusion works great with a Wacom.

But: not everybody can or wants to use a wacom. When you script or type a lot and dropping the stylus to use the keyboard then picking it back up is time consuming.

And: Scrolling without ctrl is possible in the viewer using a hidden preference option (at least it was in Fu 7... haven't checked it out in the beta yet).

So why not make this possible in the flow view as well?


Left + Middle mouse is the most awkward thing ever. This combination is only there for wacom users who have mapped the middle mouse button to an appropriate switch on their pen.

I don't disagree, just pointing out what options are currently available.

I too think a complete overhaul of the hotkey / navigation system should happen. Keep the feedback, as this is important issue, especially those coming in from other packages, which is what we want after all.

Just give us the option to remap the keys, that just cannot be very complicated. This is one of few things in Fusion that really sucks for me, so at least make them editable so we can set them in the hotkeys file.

But: not everybody can or wants to use a wacom. When you script or type a lot and dropping the stylus to use the keyboard then picking it back up is time consuming.

OT: Don't drop it then, keep it between your fingers. That's what I do and I even use my wacom exclusively on days where I do nothing but write code in VS for example. I never drop the stylus.

Cheers,
Mike

I'd strongly vote for an optional ALT-navigation, like in just about any other compositing and 3D application on the market. The current navigation is fine for pen users, but with a mouse Fusion feels awkward every time I switch from MODO, Softimage, Nuke or Substance Painter.

Thanks
Steffen

I would also like to vote strongly for an optional ALT-navigation. It's very hard to switch between Fusion and any other 3d application when the navigation is so different. Please consider implementing this.

-b

OT: Don't drop it then, keep it between your fingers. That's what I do and I even use my wacom exclusively on days where I do nothing but write code in VS for example. I never drop the stylus.

Solves one RSI, creates another in doing so.

But: not everybody can or wants to use a wacom.

Having messed with graphics for 25+ years, I never have, but then again I came from photography, not drawing, so the pen was never a natural interface for me... Now, I of course tried to get into it several times over the years, but I just never managed. It feels amazingly awkward.

I don't use pen tablet at all. Just mouse. Hence my original request. LBM+MMB feels really weird on the mouse, especially since mouse has now one hardware feature specifically designed for scrolling and zooming - mouse wheel.

And both in flow and in view, it makes a lot more sense to use mouse for zooming by default (without need modifier of key) than scrolling, since most of the wheels are designed for 1 axis transformation only, you will use panning instead of scrolling feature in majority of cases.

Really, it's year 2015, and there are already some refined conventions when it comes to interacting with software. There is absolutely no excuse not to adapt these conventions.

Look at the DaVinci for example. I was looking for some simple software to do some video tutorial cutting with. I downloaded DaVinci 12 beta, and even though i never used it and did not read any manual nor watched any tutorial, i was able to import footage, edit it, cut it, add transitions, and finish it, within 5 minutes. Since I experienced some crashes, I tried to downgrade to DaVinci 11 to do the same, but once I opened DaVinci 11, i could not do any of the things i did in 12. The user experience design was just so much worse.

So since Blackmagic did so much improvements in DaVinci regarding of UI logic, ease of use and learning curve, there is no reason not to do same with Fusion, and bring it a little closer to general UI logic, instead of stubbornly keeping legacy things the way they are just because of few oldschool users like it that way.

It's just about adding one checkbox "Zoom without Ctrl key" Once enabled, you will be able to zoom without holding Ctrl key, but lose ability to scroll vertically in viewer or flow (which no one uses anyway since everyone pans)

Of course, terrible 3D navigation key setup needs overhaul too, but that's a whole different story.

Look at the DaVinci for example. I was looking for some simple software to do some video tutorial cutting with. I downloaded DaVinci 12 beta, and even though i never used it and did not read any manual nor watched any tutorial, i was able to import footage, edit it, cut it, add transitions, and finish it, within 5 minutes. Since I experienced some crashes, I tried to downgrade to DaVinci 11 to do the same, but once I opened DaVinci 11, i could not do any of the things i did in 12. The user experience design was just so much worse.

yeah, I've been trying to tell the negative users that, just looking how BMD went from a demo camera in 2012 to the models they offer today, in three years, I just can't imagine them not doing the same for Fusion. I have great expectations for the future of Fusion.

I don't use pen tablet at all. Just mouse. Hence my original request. LBM+MMB feels really weird on the mouse, especially since mouse has now one hardware feature specifically designed for scrolling and zooming - mouse wheel.

And both in flow and in view, it makes a lot more sense to use mouse for zooming by default (without need modifier of key) than scrolling, since most of the wheels are designed for 1 axis transformation only, you will use panning instead of scrolling feature in majority of cases.

Really, it's year 2015, and there are already some refined conventions when it comes to interacting with software. There is absolutely no excuse not to adapt these conventions.

Look at the DaVinci for example. I was looking for some simple software to do some video tutorial cutting with. I downloaded DaVinci 12 beta, and even though i never used it and did not read any manual nor watched any tutorial, i was able to import footage, edit it, cut it, add transitions, and finish it, within 5 minutes. Since I experienced some crashes, I tried to downgrade to DaVinci 11 to do the same, but once I opened DaVinci 11, i could not do any of the things i did in 12. The user experience design was just so much worse.

So since Blackmagic did so much improvements in DaVinci regarding of UI logic, ease of use and learning curve, there is no reason not to do same with Fusion, and bring it a little closer to general UI logic, instead of stubbornly keeping legacy things the way they are just because of few oldschool users like it that way.

It's just about adding one checkbox "Zoom without Ctrl key" Once enabled, you will be able to zoom without holding Ctrl key, but lose ability to scroll vertically in viewer or flow (which no one uses anyway since everyone pans)

Of course, terrible 3D navigation key setup needs overhaul too, but that's a whole different story.

I pretty much agree on all points. Fusion needs to be very accessible to all users, including those of us who are pretty much strictly mouse users. I much prefer Nuke's zooming method of just scrolling the mouse wheel for quick and easy zooms. An option for this in Fusion would be very welcome.

I'm also looking forward to Blackmagic's (hopefully) aggressive development of Fusion. Competition in the nodal compositing market would be win-win for all compositors.

I agree no key-combo MMB scroll-zoom and MMB panning like in Nuke and Houdini would be awesome but IMO it's really not a question about implementing a specific hot key set but just give us the possibility to remap the 3D view keys so the users can match any other app they use/like.

Another thing to keep in consideration is that Fusion should be consistent with other softwares. Many people will use Fusion as an auxiliary tool, 3D generalists for example.

Now imagine if you use 3 different softwares with some sort of node based editor, all of them being able to zoom just with mouse wheel, let's say 3ds Max slate editor, WorldMachine, Unreal Editor, and then you always come back to that pesky one that requires you to hold Ctrl key - Fusion. It literally F's with your brain.

First impression makes a lot, and when i first tried fusion some years ago, it took me several minutes to figure out how to comfortably and easily zoom in flow view. Such elementary operations should not be a subject to be figured out, they should come absolutely naturally.

Otherwise, it has extremely discouraging effect. Every time you encounter some exotic approach to something elementary in a new software, you usually get that feeling "If they got so basic thing so wrong, I can't imagine how wrong could they execute some advanced things". It can really scare away many users trying Fusion for the first time.

Now, this has been discussed previously on the main Fusion forum, but once again - changing the way of zooming to do so without ctrl key will mean to either lose MMB scroll-ability in tool controls panel, spline view and timeline view, have it but with modifier key, or have two different types of behavior of the scroll wheel across the UI.

The first two scenarios, I don't see as beneficial in regards of usability at all. Moving your pointer around and aiming for the scroll-bar or having to hold a modifier key for an action which is much often used than zooming is not handy.
The third scenario (leave the tool controls panel, spline view and timeline view behavior as it is and change the behavior for flow view and image viewers) can work, I guess, but it will mean an inconsistency across the UI - something which the new users need to get accustomed to. For instance text+/3Dtext tool's controls have options to both be scrolled through and zoom in/out (the text field, for better readability) which means the text zoom will have to be coded with modifier key still. And of course timeline/spline views will still need modifier key.

The tool controls scrolling on itself needs improvements - it needs not to break when a slider is clicked and needs to deselect a recently activated/highlighted dropdown menu when clicking on an empty area inside the tool controls (as now, you need to click outside tool controls panel and click back again to activate scrolling).

Simple solution: Make it customizable.

I personally (3D freelancer) am used to navigating with the ALT-key and the 3 mouse buttons. I don't even use the mouse wheel at all if I can avoid it. I hate it, don't ask why. It's a personal thing.
Other guys seem to even write code with the pen in the hand. Personal thing as well.

The 3D features of Fusion are awesome, but the navigation really kills all the pleasure I could possibly have. I can't concentrate on the work but I'm always fiddling with pressing 2 mouse buttons at once and like a USB connector that always needs 3 tries until it finally fits I always press the wrong combination at first.

Making it an option like in 99% of all other applications would be a huge feature for me.

Yep, customization, as mentioned earlier in this thread and now again, with some smart customizable options would probably be the best solution.

like a USB connector that always needs 3 tries

Btw, on HD or higher res monitors, a person with good eyesight will probably not use tool control panel scrolling much, but for those who have their screen res at ~150% it is one of the most often performed actions.

Now, this has been discussed previously on the main Fusion forum, but once again - changing the way of zooming to do so without ctrl key will mean to either lose MMB scroll-ability in tool controls panel, spline view and timeline view, have it but with modifier key, or have two different types of behavior of the scroll wheel across the UI.

Why would using the mouse wheel to zoom the flow view affect your ability to use it to scroll the tool panels?

The whole discussion is weird. There's a competing comp software out there which doesn't require you to hold down ctrl while using the mouse wheel to zoom. And I don't see any of its users complain about it

For consistency? I believe I layed down the three possible scenarios and their pros/cons in my opinion in my post...
And is not only the tool control panel, but timeline/spline as well which are scroll-able and are better to stay that way.

I don't believe the competing comp software has scrolling available in tools controls, or am I wrong - has been long since I opened it.

Hi Ivan,

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstand what you meant by "scrolling in the tool control panel". I thought you meant scrolling up/down if there are more controls than fit on screen. And this would of course continue to be done by using the mouse wheel. Even though the wheel is used to zoom the other views.

But maybe that's not what you meant?

For consistency? I believe I layed down the three possible scenarios and their pros/cons in my opinion in my post...
And is not only the tool control panel, but timeline/spline as well which are scroll-able and are better to stay that way.

I don't believe the competing comp software has scrolling available in tools controls, or am I wrong - has been long since I opened it.

I understand that you are used to having it a certain way and I certainly don't want to take that away from you, but look at it from my perspective, I really don't care about your preferences at all, I care about my preferences. And I'm not saying that to be rude, I'm sure you don't give a sh!t how I like to arrange my GUI over dual screens when I work in Houdini...

And if you're talking about the properties pane in Nuke, of course it scrolls, but the flow and viewer zooms on scrolling and pans with MMB-klick drag, and so does Houdini.

Ya, I get it. Cool. It's not bothering me and surely won't bother the people coming from Nuke or other 3d packages.

BMD, just don't get into "when in doubt, copy what Nuke does" mode, not sure Fusion deserves that.

I also don't understand why making mousewheel zoom should break scrolling in panel or other UI elements. It's not hardcoded in a way that it has to do exact same thing in each of the UI elements. It can do zooming in viewer and flow while still doing scrolling in other UI elements. Do you really use vertical scroll in flow view or viewer for example? I can't imagine anyone doing so regularly since in both viewer and flow you move around in 2D space (two axis) while mousewheel is only 1D (1 axis) control, so you are restricted only to vertical movement.

It's like playing 3D shooter game, but being able to move only forward and backward, not left or right.

And you can not seriously talk about inconsistency here, as pretty much any other 3D or compositing software out there works exactly that way, and no one complains. Actually only complains I have came across so far are here, in Fusion, about this "consistency".

As for the "when in doubt, copy what Nuke does" thing... Sure that's not always good, but what's way worse is "do it differently just for the sake of being different, not necessarily better" mentality.

There is no such thing as vertical scroll in flow view or viewer in Fusion.
There is however scroll in tool controls, TIMELINE and SPLINE VIEW.
But since the request seems to call for Nuke like behavior in all areas, I guess it will get much attention.

Being different for the sake of just being different is not what Fusion was after for all it's years of being on the market.
Getting this feature customizable will be a good thing, I agree.

There is no such thing as vertical scroll in flow view or viewer in Fusion.
There is however scroll in tool controls, TIMELINE and SPLINE VIEW.
But since the request seems to call for Nuke like behavior in all areas, I guess it will get much attention.

Being different for the sake of just being different is not what Fusion was after for all it's years of being on the market.
Getting this feature customizable will be a good thing, I agree.

Actually i have Fusion 8 beta open right now, and scrolling mouse wheel in the flow scrolls it up and down And same goes for viewer...

Haven't tried 8 beta yet, interesting..
You don't have the same behavior in < 8 version, do you? Or maybe its a Mac thing, I'm on Win.

Ya, I get it. Cool. It's not bothering me and surely won't bother the people coming from Nuke or other 3d packages.

BMD, just don't get into "when in doubt, copy what Nuke does" mode, not sure Fusion deserves that.

Agreed, I don't want to take anything from existing power users, I just want to not have the same 3D viewer control in RealFlow, Houdini, Nuke, etc. and another in Fusion - so for everyone to be happy, we need user control over those controls.

And Fusion is not Nuke and should not emulate a workflow based on a different mindset, I think they wonderfully compliment eachother.

Haven't tried 8 beta yet, interesting..
You don't have the same behavior in < 8 version, do you? Or maybe its a Mac thing, I'm on Win.

I am on Win too, and in Fusion 7, scrolling in Flow or Viewer indeed does not do anything, but that is all the more reason to remove necessity for holding down Ctrl key.

It shows both that mouse wheel can do different things depending on which UI element it is used in, and also that since mouse wheel on it's own did not do anything in flow or viewer in previous Fusion versions, it shouldn't break anything if it starts doing something in these two UI elements from now on.

I would also like to see a customizable Zoom / Pan. I work with a wacom tablet, but i always have it set to "Click & Tap". So, i have to press the side switch AND tap the pen down to actually trigger a click, because i find it very hard to click at a precise position, when the pen is not fixed on the tablet. That makes it impossible to use left and middle click at the same time.

(I would prefer the Maya-Style: Alt + Right click to Zoom, Alt + Left click to rotate and Alt+ Middle click to pan.)

All navigation requests are valid. Fusion is going through a complete overhaul, so releasing some sort of hot key manager at this moment would be counter productive.

The specifics have been well described from users and certainly evaluate all options for navigation. We do understand some use mice, some tablets, some don't want to use keyboard, etc..

All Valid, and is certainly not being ignored.
A lot of previous feedback on other UI issues is already resolved for next Beta, and navigation will have to be addressed after UI features are locked.

About scrolling to change values, there's a couple of different appications of that I've seen, the variant in Nuke where you scroll where the cursor are (on regard to decimals) but the best solution I ever seen is Houdini's, MMB on any value and you get this popup thingy, then you can just drag left and right at the height of the decimal you want to change, be it 100's or 1/100's - it's friggin genius.

Untitled-1.jpg (28.97 KiB) Viewed 17811 times

Edit:

Oh, doing this is a single box changes that value, MMB the value label, you change all values for that attribute.

The Houdini Value Ladder is awesome. It's easy to use and it's easy to get precise results.

-b

The Houdini Value Ladder is awesome. It's easy to use and it's easy to get precise results.

The Houdini Value Ladder

That's a badass name. It's like if Chuck Norris was asked for naming advice. Boom!

Houdini is nice one for sure.

FYI for nubies. Clicking the arrows in sliders gets you increments of one decimal, while clicking and using ctrl gives you 2.

All navigation requests are valid. Fusion is going through a complete overhaul, so releasing some sort of hot key manager at this moment would be counter productive.

The specifics have been well described from users and certainly evaluate all options for navigation. We do understand some use mice, some tablets, some don't want to use keyboard, etc..

All Valid, and is certainly not being ignored.
A lot of previous feedback on other UI issues is already resolved for next Beta, and navigation will have to be addressed after UI features are locked.

Well, as you're asking, could you please invest $90 on a 3DConnexion SpaceNavigator puck and try it out?
http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spa ... gator.html

3dsMax, Maya, MotionBuilder, Lightwave, 3d-Coat, etc. etc. have all embraced this left handed (opposite hand from mouse) technique so that once you understand how it works - you can move between disparate software platforms and immediately know how to navigate.

It comes with a trainer tool in the setup program that allows you to completely control a 3D teacup (flip, move toward you, away, rotate, etc. etc.) with 6 degrees of freedom. Once you've played with this for a few minutes, you'll immediately understand!!

Of course, for key commands, having the ability to choose our own key combinations would be great! Not everyone will want to use a Wacom or a 3DConnexion puck.

I'd like to point out that the scroll wheel zooming in Fusion 8 is reversed from Fusion 7. I think it should go back to the Fusion 7 way.

I'd like to point out that the scroll wheel zooming in Fusion 8 is reversed from Fusion 7. I think it should go back to the Fusion 7 way.

When I started Substance Painter the first time and it had the reverse zoom direction, if I hadn't been able to change that, I would have never opened the app again. That just messes with my mind to much.

I'd like to point out that the scroll wheel zooming in Fusion 8 is reversed from Fusion 7. I think it should go back to the Fusion 7 way.

When I started Substance Painter the first time and it had the reverse zoom direction, if I hadn't been able to change that, I would have never opened the app again. That just messes with my mind to much.

Never blow dried your hair in the mirror?
Kidding aside, please buy SpaceNavigator so I have a reason to 'need' one

Kidding aside, please buy SpaceNavigator so I have a reason to 'need' one

btw - with the SpaceNavigator puck, you'd just pull the puck toward you to zoom in.

You can also pull 'up' on the puck, or push 'down' - as well as 'twist' to rotate, and 'tilt' from side to side or front to back.

It's the crack-cocaine of navigational tools, addicting the hapless user very quickly ha ha.

And as any platform that uses it will work essentially the same way, there's no learning curve.

Never blow dried your hair in the mirror?

Given your avatar I am surprised to see you use that analogy...

Never blow dried your hair in the mirror?

DSC00188.JPG (332.43 KiB) Viewed 17580 times

Kidding aside, please buy SpaceNavigator so I have a reason to 'need' one

I played around with a LeapMotion 10 minutes today, as much as that sucked, I'm open to check a SpaceNavigator out for sure.

Back at AT we wrote a plugin for Fusion 5 for the Space Navigator. The Traveler model was what we tested it on. There's no way to add a new input device for navigation, and at the time no 3D SDK, so it was implemented as a set of number modifiers for the camera or whatever object you wanted to assign it to. Once you set that up, it was awesome, but the fact that you needed to hook all those things up was a downer. I suspect BMD could add support easily, but unless there is demand, I don't know why they would. One of those chicken and egg things. I think we'd see the return of marking menus before we saw 3DConnexion support. Unless you shipped a pack of them to Toronto.

my preference is to bring back marking menus

For some odd reason, every single person I know of who bought space navigator wanted to sell it sooner or later.

Btw, on HD or higher res monitors, a person with good eyesight will probably not use tool control panel scrolling much,

I have a 1440 monitor with 100% scaling and can't get 2 BC's in the Tools view without scrolling. If I'm working with a client, I reduce that to the height of the Flow view and then I can't even use 1 BC without scrolling.

Back at AT we wrote a plugin for Fusion 5 for the Space Navigator. The Traveler model was what we tested it on. There's no way to add a new input device for navigation, and at the time no 3D SDK, so it was implemented as a set of number modifiers for the camera or whatever object you wanted to assign it to. Once you set that up, it was awesome, but the fact that you needed to hook all those things up was a downer. I suspect BMD could add support easily, but unless there is demand, I don't know why they would. One of those chicken and egg things. I think we'd see the return of marking menus before we saw 3DConnexion support. Unless you shipped a pack of them to Toronto.

I agree, those who only use Fusion, having never used a 3dconnexion puck, may not demand it. I only got interested due to hearing folks rave about it using it - they seemed very passionate about it and I was curious.

But, I think BlackMagic has it's sights on the vast community of 3D modeling software users who may now want to try the best compositing tool in the world, due to the new pricing.

They also see Fusion's future as brilliant due to the rave reviews of new revisions of Resolve. A lot more folks will want to try Fusion because of Resolve.

Those coming from Maya, 3ds Max, MotionBuilder, Mudbox, Lightwave, 3D-Coat, etc. who already use the puck, will have instant familiarity and a comfort level with Fusion. That one feature could very well be what cements their choice of Fusion (as a post or so above this, Johnny Farmfield would have blown off Substance Painter if he could not change their default zoom direction).

People get funny about user interfaces, they want it there way. I own both zBrush and 3d-Coat, but prefer 3d-Coat due to the 3dConnexion puck (but love the zRemesher, etc. tools of zBrush). If you move between many software platforms, the puck sure does simplify one's life.

You can be certain that years ago, when far less people were using 3dConnexion, Autodesk had to have a very good reason to implement the interface.

If a single programmer at 3d-Coat could do it while wearing all the other hats of program development (he implemented years ago, when it was probably more difficult than now), I'd expect the talented folks at BlackMagic could really do it justice.

And if they do, and enough folks rave about BlackMagic's great implementation of the puck, you can be certain more and more folks with throw down $90 just to try it out - and will keep using the puck after they do.

I've never heard of anyone returning a puck. There could be a bad port, as Lightwave's initial ports were pretty abysmal, and if the port sucks ...

I have a 1440 monitor with 100% scaling and can't get 2 BC's in the Tools view without scrolling. If I'm working with a client, I reduce that to the height of the Flow view and then I can't even use 1 BC without scrolling.

I'm on HD monitor at 150% and I scroll a lot. Even single CC tool panel is not fitting entirely.
I understand that my settings are far from the norm though, can't get used to 100%, too tiny.