4.6k stills from John Brawley!

"Ungraded, just a straight 709 from Resolve, basically the same thing you see on set in the camera when you're monitoring in 709 through the EVF or on screen. If you're seeing any clipping, chances are, like above, the highlights are all there, they're just clipped for the same of the 709 transform. Lighting is simple, usually bounce or negative fill. A few LED panels....

This is RAW 3:1

PL mount camera with Cooke S4's"

Try again after a few more posts, or use your real name.

Oh, it's me.
I'm not a member of the other forum.

I know this will sound crazy, and maybe I'm the only person thinking this but...

The color science of the 4.6k, from most of the footage and stills I've seen posted so far, just doesn't seem as good as either the BMPC4k or the BMCC. The 4.6k footage has a more DSLR look to the color that I can't quite put my finger on. Its like the reds and greens are more saturated. I dunno. The footage looks nice, but I've only seen 1 or 2 clips from the 4.6k that seem to have that elusive film color to them like what I often see from the BMPC4k. I realize you can push and pull and tweak and LUT etc etc etc in post. But as far as out-of-the-box color with a simple REC709 gamma curve, the 4.6k doesn't seem to have the same BM secret sauce. I know, I'm crazy.

I know this will sound crazy, and maybe I'm the only person thinking this but...

The color science of the 4.6k, from most of the footage and stills I've seen posted so far, just doesn't seem as good as either the BMPC4k or the BMCC. The 4.6k footage has a more DSLR look to the color that I can't quite put my finger on. Its like the reds and greens are more saturated. I dunno. The footage looks nice, but I've only seen 1 or 2 clips from the 4.6k that seem to have that elusive film color to them like what I often see from the BMPC4k. I know, I'm crazy.

I think some of it has to do with how you grade it. This is a shot he had with BMD film:

KILLER.

So...what's the world going to be like I wonder...when we can get an absolutely pro-level cinema camera for under ten-grand?

Just out of curiosity I'd like to see what a "very-realistic" documentary would look like from this camera. I mean like with a color grade done for technical realism, not artistic aesthetic.

I know this will sound crazy, and maybe I'm the only person thinking this but...

The color science of the 4.6k, from most of the footage and stills I've seen posted so far, just doesn't seem as good as either the BMPC4k or the BMCC. The 4.6k footage has a more DSLR look to the color that I can't quite put my finger on. Its like the reds and greens are more saturated. I dunno. The footage looks nice, but I've only seen 1 or 2 clips from the 4.6k that seem to have that elusive film color to them like what I often see from the BMPC4k. I realize you can push and pull and tweak and LUT etc etc etc in post. But as far as out-of-the-box color with a simple REC709 gamma curve, the 4.6k doesn't seem to have the same BM secret sauce. I know, I'm crazy.

Maybe these will ease your mind:

BEFORE:



AFTER:




BEFORE:



AFTER:




...and my favorite

BEFORE:



AFTER:

Maybe these will ease your mind:

Not really. I mean, the dynamic range is obviously there. The scene with the guy looking out the window shows that really well. But for shots with just a REC709 LUT on them, the color just doesn't have the same feel that the BMPC4k and BMCC do, to my eyes. I'm not bashing it, just a little surprised is all.

Maybe these will ease your mind:

Not really. I mean, the dynamic range is obviously there. The scene with the guy looking out the window shows that really well. But for shots with just a REC709 LUT on them, the color just doesn't have the same feel that the BMPC4k and BMCC do, to my eyes. I'm not bashing it, just a little surprised is all.

I think then it would be fair to say you don't like the LOOK of the REC 709 grade that it applies.

I don't think that's a fair reflection of the camera though and I'm sure once you have some RAW files you'll come around.

What i find amusing is that so many people dissed the look of the 4K when it launched and now it's everyone's favourite look ! I feel certain this is because when you have a NEW image it takes a while to get to know it and how to make the most of it in terms of grading. I think too we've seen a lot of that from the test footage out there, most famously with Jody's footage.

Also, to the OP it would have be really nice to have asked my permission to re-post these images.

JB

Maybe these will ease your mind:

Not really. I mean, the dynamic range is obviously there. The scene with the guy looking out the window shows that really well. But for shots with just a REC709 LUT on them, the color just doesn't have the same feel that the BMPC4k and BMCC do, to my eyes. I'm not bashing it, just a little surprised is all.

I think then it would be fair to say you don't like the LOOK of the REC 709 grade that it applies.

I don't think that's a fair reflection of the camera though and I'm sure once you have some RAW files you'll come around.

What i find amusing is that so many people dissed the look of the 4K when it launched and now it's everyone's favourite look ! I feel certain this is because when you have a NEW image it takes a while to get to know it and how to make the most of it in terms of grading. I think too we've seen a lot of that from the test footage out there, most famously with Jody's footage.

Also, to the OP it would have be really nice to have asked my permission to re-post these images.

JB

I agree that the new image is a new thing to learn to grade. I can't do the same things I did with the 2.5K and expect the same results. Finding the balance that serves the image is key. However, there's so much flexibility, and I love that. The images this camera produces are astounding.

By the way. Love the stills from the film. Can't wait to see the short. I enjoyed your write-ups on bmcuser.com on how you came to choose it as the A-Camera.

I don't think that's a fair reflection of the camera though and I'm sure once you have some RAW files you'll come around.

....................................

JB

John,

One of the things I really liked about the BMPC4k was that I didn't really have to do much "grading" to get film-stock looking color. I shot ProRes in film gamma with it mostly, just to save as much DR as possible, and then for the most part just add a bit of contrast back with a gamma curve. I am not a good colorist, so it was nice to have filmic color science out of the box. Now, I realize with RAW and Resolve you can tweak things ad naseum. I just really liked not having to, personally. I know, lazy.

Anyways, the DR is looking great, so thats good.

-Ian

Maybe these will ease your mind:

Not really. I mean, the dynamic range is obviously there. The scene with the guy looking out the window shows that really well. But for shots with just a REC709 LUT on them, the color just doesn't have the same feel that the BMPC4k and BMCC do, to my eyes. I'm not bashing it, just a little surprised is all.

I think then it would be fair to say you don't like the LOOK of the REC 709 grade that it applies.

I don't think that's a fair reflection of the camera though and I'm sure once you have some RAW files you'll come around.

What i find amusing is that so many people dissed the look of the 4K when it launched and now it's everyone's favourite look ! I feel certain this is because when you have a NEW image it takes a while to get to know it and how to make the most of it in terms of grading. I think too we've seen a lot of that from the test footage out there, most famously with Jody's footage.

Also, to the OP it would have be really nice to have asked my permission to re-post these images.

JB

Oh, super sorry about that. Thought it was free to share around. I apologize.

Oh, super sorry about that. Thought it was free to share around. I apologize.

All good

It's always nice to ask when you don't own the images. I didn't share them to plug the camera as such and that's what it turns into once the images get re-posted here. Also they might get reposted without the explanation about why there is clipping in some (which you din't do) but you can see that if they were posted as images without an explanation they look like they have less DR than they really do....

JB

None of these images are loading for me. Did they get taken down? I've logged in and tried two different browsers.

[CaptainHook]

I'm reposting what i posted over on BMCuser - the "after" images andrewmcmurry has posted above were some grades i played with that John posted:

"I've stayed away from posting about the camera since the announcement as much as possible because i know my thoughts will be seen as biased being that i'm involved with the cameras now, but i just wanted to say this short John shot back in Dec looks lovely and playing with the DNG's is a real treat. The grades i did back then he just posted was just me playing with various "looks" and obviously just one approach, but my opinion is you can definitely get that same 'mojo' that people love from the Cinema Camera, and personally i find it even easier to do so with the 4.6K. One difference though is that it's higher resolution with less noise, and that will "feel" different. But colour wise, DR, and motion i think it's strong, and flexible.

And to clear it up, yes i graded those frames of JB's back then from BMDFilm 4.6K, rather than 709. I believe John was just illustrating the "out of the box" look you could get. One goal with the new BMDFilm 4.6K is to make it easier to grade and get a nice solid base to grade further. I think the early footage from Kholi, Tom, and Roman shows this very well. They did very simple grades to show what the camera was capturing and you can see what a great starting point you have.

I hope it's okay with JB that i'm posting this, but here's one of the frames where all i've done is quickly add a curve to BMDFilm 4.6K. Personally i feel with the Cinema Camera it would take me much more work to achieve the same, which is why i originally turned my powergrades i used for that camera into a LUT to share online with people. Granted this is very nicely shot and what's in front of the camera and how you shoot it means more than anything else.

The classic 's' type curve i quickly did:



And the Result, just a curve on BMDFilm 4.6K without touching saturation or colour:



I feel like i could go anywhere from here with a look, or leave it as it is as a "neutral" look. Quite a few people over the last few months have been asking me if i've got LUTs for the 4.6K yet, but i'm not convinced they're even needed - as i said originally i shared my LUTs because i felt it was really needed to help people get somewhere good quickly. But not with the 4.6K. Perhaps i'll do some look type LUTs as i know they can be useful for some, i'm still undecided.

I'll go back to lurking now as i what i said with the 4.6K video i did at announcement still stands and so far the feedback from everyone who's shot with the camera is that they love it. Everyone's entitled to their opinions of course, but just like the original Cinema Camera you will want to learn how to get the best from it which i think people are starting to see the results of now.

Thanks to those who have been patient on this journey, i think it will be worth the wait. "

None of these images are loading for me. Did they get taken down? I've logged in and tried two different browsers.

My guess is the OP took them down. Perhaps there's a link to the originals that could be posted?

None of these images are loading for me. Did they get taken down? I've logged in and tried two different browsers.

My guess is the OP took them down. Perhaps there's a link to the originals that could be posted?

They're still up.

JB

[CaptainHook]

They're attachments on BMCuser so unless you're a user and signed in, you won't see them here.

None of these images are loading for me. Did they get taken down? I've logged in and tried two different browsers.

The images link to bmcuser, so you probably have to be a registered user there to see the images.

Gotcha. Thanks I'll sign in there.

I'm signed in but not seeing anything other than the post with CaptainHook's curve and the fellow looking out the window.


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[CaptainHook]

JB's post and the discussion starts here:

http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?1 ... post195544

CaptainHook, the car, the beach, the city skyline: perfect postcards! Beautiful work.


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[CaptainHook]

Thanks Rick!

Here is the post and frames for anyone wondering:

"Okay, well here's some still frames from some walk around footage i shot early dec, graded from ProRes BMDFilm 4.6K. Again, playing around with "looks" in the grade."

What strength ND were you using Hook? I'm debating what to do for ND and IR now that I've left the RED ecosystem.

Look'n nice, Hook.

All of this work looks very nice.

Sometimes the grades make the skin look a little green-ish, but then there's also a lot of green in the shots. When I isolate the talent their skin tone nearly matches my own. What's that called? When you're looking at something blue and there's red behind it and so the red makes the blue look purple to your eye, even though it's just blue? Like your brain is interpreting the colors wrong? I know there's a word for that. Works with shades of gray, too...like when you're calibrating your computer monitor; that little gray chart with the logo and you adjust the contrast till you can barely see the logo. That kinda thing? That's where I'm seeing the green skin because there's trees behind the talent. Take the green trees out and the skin tones are perfectly fine. Besides, the story would trump any niggles I might have with the perceived and admittedly quick grade.

The latitude of the camera's dynamic range was never a question for me as I know BMD was going to do just fine with that, but the color fidelity? I've mentioned before how much I love the 2.5K's color science; to see this latest batch of beta footage this week has validated the other part of my brain that says "don't worry about it." Judging the quality of just the above images (posted on bmcuser, et al), as well as the more seasoned cinematographers choosing the Ursa Mini 4.6K over other digital cinema cameras for certain work, I think it's safe to say Blackmagic has a winner. This is an exciting time.

Yes Jason, we do live in exciting times! At least for visual imaging. Cheers

Jason, spot on as usual! Our brain's interpretion of colours are based upon or at least influenced by the surrounding colours. I've been totally fooled at the colour of a swatch of paper when other coloured paper is placed around the piece. You think it's colour A and then when the other paper is removed, it's actually colour B. Something challenging to keep in mind when grading for a certain look and skintone trying for consistency across scene changes. I think this is possibly one area where LUTs can fall short unless they are tweaked clip by clip.


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Glad you did these grades Hook, first ones i really like! Keep 'm coming pls!

These images are awesome!

Where can I get a car like the one in the 6th frame grab? I want one.

Great shots, and grading. Thanks for sharing Hook. You rock!


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Here you go, Tim. I think this is a Cadillac 1955 series 62:
http://classiccars.com/listings/view/76 ... rnia-93401

1956 series 62 Cadillacs looked very similar. But by 1957 they were moving, with most of the North American manufacturers, to add 'fins' and things went downhill.

I remember my parents buying this instead, 1956 Buick Special (ours was all white):
http://classiccars.com/listings/view/53 ... exas-76017


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Oh good lord. I saw this image and actually gasped. Amazing.

I know this will sound crazy, and maybe I'm the only person thinking this but...

The color science of the 4.6k, from most of the footage and stills I've seen posted so far, just doesn't seem as good as either the BMPC4k or the BMCC. The 4.6k footage has a more DSLR look to the color that I can't quite put my finger on. Its like the reds and greens are more saturated. ....I know, I'm crazy.

You're not crazy. The BMCC footage looks better to me as well. I made the same point (and quoted you there) below.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44239&p=258682#p258682

Eventually somebody will do a BMCC, BMPC, and 4.6K side by side comparison I hope.

Based on what i've seen on this topic, i didn't like the colors too, the images are a bit flat looking and skin tones are muddy and kinda lifeless.. I hope to see some better examples, but overall i'm not impressed by the 4.6k sensor especially because if you turn on the global shutter it will cause a loss of around 2.5 stops of DR, which doesn't make sense if the older 4K sensor produce pretty much the same amount of DR and perhaps better colors, but this only matters to crazy people like me who believe the global shutter is essential for capturing filmic motion.

Based on what i've seen on this topic, i didn't like the colors too, the images are a bit flat looking and skin tones are muddy and kinda lifeless.. I hope to see some better examples, but overall i'm not impressed by the 4.6k sensor especially because if you turn on the global shutter it will cause a loss of around 2.5 stops of DR, which doesn't make sense if the older 4K sensor produce pretty much the same amount of DR and perhaps better colors, but this only matters to crazy people like me who believe the global shutter is essential for capturing filmic motion.

Hi Alberto,

maybe my eyes are too slowly, but I think with the Alexas or Reds you get very filmic motion and they don't have global shutter.

I shot this movie on an Alexa and partly on Epic, almost everything handheld

and this old short as a reference also handheld on an ARRI SR2.



Don't see a difference in motion cadence, do you?

but this only matters to crazy people like me who believe the global shutter is essential for capturing filmic motion.

Alberto which global shutter camera are you using right now ?

There are three I can think of...Ursa Mini 4K, Alexa STUDIO and the F55 / F65?

JB

but this only matters to crazy people like me who believe the global shutter is essential for capturing filmic motion.

Alberto which global shutter camera are you using right now ?

There are three I can think of...Ursa Mini 4K, Alexa STUDIO and the F55 / F65?

JB

D16 ?

1

but this only matters to crazy people like me who believe the global shutter is essential for capturing filmic motion.

Alberto which global shutter camera are you using right now ?

There are three I can think of...Ursa Mini 4K, Alexa STUDIO and the F55 / F65?

JB

D16 ?

Yes of course ! Totally forgot that !

JB

The Alexa Studio simply offers a different means of capturing motion with its mechanical mirror shutter that some cinematographers, including Mr. Deakins, might prefer to the electronic shutter of other cameras. And as an added benefit the rotating mirror shutter allows the use of an Optical Viewfinder in rather than an electronic one. (I work with ARRI in Burbank)

Ok....

You're telling me something that's totally flying in the face of accepted wisdom.

I was at the ASC awards last week and caught up with fellow Australian Martin Cayzer, the CEO of Arri Rental worldwide, and we talked at length about the Alexa studio. I'd just done a TV series with Alexa studios and when I mentioned I'd used them he said they weren't popular cameras but he himself brought up the global shutter as a feature not many had been aware of, assuming that's why I chose them.

And there is also, you know, official Arri documentation. I point you to this link in Arri's FAQ'a about the Alexa studio....

http://www.arri.com/EN/camera/alexa/lea ... amily_faq/

"The ALEXA Studio can be used in electronic shutter mode, in which case it functions like all other ALEXAs and like described above, but it can also be used in rotating mirror shutter mode, in which case a physical, half moon shaped mirror (see image) rotates in front of the sensor. This mirror shutter has the function of a global shutter. "


Then you're also contradicting yourself by saying that it offers a different means of capturing motion with it's mechanical shutter ?

My understanding is that the mechanical shutter turns the rolling shutter CMOS sensor into a global shutter sensor.

It's also what Aaton were attempting to do with the Penelope Delta...I had several conversations with JPB about this feature.

So, I'm going to go with yes, the Alexa studio has a spinning mechanical shutter that turns the Alexa sensor into a global shutter sensor.

JB

It's true that it gives the perception/behavior of a global shutter but what I was simpley stating is that the sensor itself does not actually read out globally, it simply behaves as close to a global sensor as possible for a CMOS readout that is not global.

From the ALEXA Studio documentation you mentioned:

"While there still is a photosite reset and a read-out, they both occur while the sensor is covered by the mirror shutter. The exposure time is determined by the physical mirror shutter sweeping across the sensor."

A global sensor based sensor would involve on-sensor circuitry that is not present on the photosites for the sensor but for all intensive purposes the Mirror Shutter gives the appearance of a global shutter, i.e. rolling shutter artifacts such as camera flashes, you are absolutely correct in that respect.

[quote="Alberto Monti"] but this only matters to crazy people like me who believe the global shutter is essential for capturing filmic motion.

Alberto which global shutter camera are you using right now ?

There are three I can think of...Ursa Mini 4K, Alexa STUDIO and the F55 / F65?

JB

D16 ?

Yes of course ! Totally forgot that !

JB[/quote]

Doesn't the BMPC4K do global shutter too? John, could you use a vacation? Go ahead, right after you upload your URSA Mini 4.6K test footage!


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I'm using a BMPC 4K, which has only global shutter, and I can spot a difference in motion cadence between a global shutter sensor and a rolling shutter sensor, of course the faster the rolling shutter the less noticeable will be.
However if you think on how film work to create the illusion of movement by sequencing frames at 24fps, thats the key of my statement, the illusion of movement feeling you get from a global shutter, rather than real movement created by a rolling shutter.
Well this could maybe only noticeable to me, but it's there, i can't lie on my feelings.
And if the BMPC 4k give me this feeling, the D16 does it even more (dunno why, could be the CCD).