URSA Mini 4.6k The Original™ Magenta Cast Issue

I forwarded my test results with real life examples to BMD, it's to BMD to decide now.

I'm done ''defending'' my issues I had with some shots. For now, shooting windowed 4k kinda solves it for me.

I would love to see an open sensor shot from the camera that John Brawley used for the official promo. I would be surprised if it showed a cross color cast, but maybe it also has it and it just isn't noticeable with his subject matter? All I know right now is that my camera produces an uneven cross color cast that will show up in a bad way on certain material, like shooting on a white cyclorama stage for instance or a snow scene. I just need a easy and consistent fix for this problem, which I hope will and should be another camera that doesn't have this issue.

So I know this isn't a very good test but it kind of shows how these pink/magenta corners are affecting the image. This is just shot in prores LT on a canon 24-105 at 400 ISO. All I know is this never looked this way on my BMPC 4k. The magenta on the bottom corners is awful.

I would love to see an open sensor shot from the camera that John Brawley used for the official promo. I would be surprised if it showed a cross color cast, but maybe it also has it and it just isn't noticeable with his subject matter? All I know right now is that my camera produces an uneven cross color cast that will show up in a bad way on certain material, like shooting on a white cyclorama stage for instance or a snow scene. I just need a easy and consistent fix for this problem, which I hope will and should be another camera that doesn't have this issue.

That camera is in another city right now. I'll do this for you once I get back to Melbourne next week.

JB

I would love to see an open sensor shot from the camera that John Brawley used for the official promo. I would be surprised if it showed a cross color cast, but maybe it also has it and it just isn't noticeable with his subject matter? All I know right now is that my camera produces an uneven cross color cast that will show up in a bad way on certain material, like shooting on a white cyclorama stage for instance or a snow scene. I just need a easy and consistent fix for this problem, which I hope will and should be another camera that doesn't have this issue.

That camera is in another city right now. I'll do this for you once I get back to Melbourne next week.

JB

Thanks John, that would be great!

So I know this isn't a very good test but it kind of shows how these pink/magenta corners are affecting the image. This is just shot in prores LT on a canon 24-105 at 400 ISO. All I know is this never looked this way on my BMPC 4k. The magenta on the bottom corners is awful.

Pink%20Corners%20color%201.jpg (842.28 KiB) Viewed 12778 times

This is unacceptable and awful indeed!! Blackmagic needs to swap your camera out! This is way too far out to simply fix in post even if somehow that were possible. Phillip, could you please post a grey open sensor shot using white paper against a window and also with your lens? This looks as bad as my first test when I used a color calibrated lightbox. There are without a doubt, cameras out there with serious sensor issues!

So I know this isn't a very good test but it kind of shows how these pink/magenta corners are affecting the image. This is just shot in prores LT on a canon 24-105 at 400 ISO. All I know is this never looked this way on my BMPC 4k. The magenta on the bottom corners is awful.

Pink%20Corners%20color%201.jpg

This is unacceptable and awful indeed!! Blackmagic needs to swap your camera out! This is way too far out to simply fix in post even if somehow that were possible. Phillip, could you please post a grey open sensor shot using white paper against a window and also with your lens? This looks as bad as my first test when I used a color calibrated lightbox. There are without a doubt, cameras out there with serious sensor issues!

It seems to be worse some times vs others. And usually when I drop the exposure or just the blacks you can really start to see it coming through on the corners. I do the same thing on my BMPC 4k with the same lens at the same settings and it looks consistent in color throughout the image so I can't imagine it's a lens/lighting or anything other than the cameras sensor issue. I emailed Black Magic, but haven't heard back yet. It depends on the lighting I guess for how much of the magenta shows up. I posted a few test clips here of just random nature stuff and I can't really see any magenta in most of the shots, though maybe I've been staring at it for so long that I just can't tell anymore lol.

But I think I see a hue of magenta in the corners of the first shot on the road. I don't know, it seems that in some shots it'll be there, and in some it won't, or maybe it's just because certain colors in the scene will hide it better. But I'll try to do some more tests with open sensor soon.

Here's a new real world test: Oh what lovely magenta corners! Rokinon 35mm T11 ISO 800 180*shutter Schneider True-Cut 680 Tiffen WW1.5 ND

Here's a new real world test: Oh what lovely magenta corners! Rokinon 35mm T11 ISO 800 180*shutter Schneider True-Cut 680 Tiffen WW1.5 ND

Yep, that's exactly what mine looks like. So the question is, did we get messed up cameras? Or is this how the new sensors just are? Because if this how they just are, then I would take the old sensor over this one any day....this is ridiculous. A year of waiting just to get a sensor with horrible magenta corners....I'm seriously considering trading my 4.6k in for a regular 4k. It would be nice if BM would address this issue...

What a shame to see it on more cameras. While waiting for mine to arrive I was watching what people are putting up on Vimeo with their cams, and it's out there. Check the last frame of this one:



Unmistakeable magenta corners. Yikes.

Here's a new real world test: Oh what lovely magenta corners! Rokinon 35mm T11 ISO 800 180*shutter Schneider True-Cut 680 Tiffen WW1.5 ND

Here is the same shot using the Lens Cast Correction (LCC) file I made in Capture One Pro for my first sensor test using the lightbox method that yielded a horrible sensor cross cast result. I did tweek the contrast setting a tiny bit, so the shot may look a tiny bit different, but notice how the magenta cast is gone. The scary thing is that I used the same file that was custom created to fix that horrible looking mess of a frame. The fact that this LCC file works so well in this new setup, means that the sensor maps out with the magenta/green shifts, pretty much how it first appeared in my first sensor testing, which is not a good thing.

Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-04-05_0421_C0021_000552 1.jpg (895.42 KiB) Viewed 12681 times

Here is the that horrible file:

Blackmagic URSA Mini_1_2016-03-30_2135_C0000_000014.jpg (638.23 KiB) Viewed 12681 times

Here is that same file with the custom LCC file applied:

Blackmagic URSA Mini_C1_LCC.jpg (648.53 KiB) Viewed 12681 times

It would be great if there could be a firmware upgrade that allowed you to create custom LCC files that embedded themselves in the footage with lens profiles you created specifically for your sensor and lens combination.

What's interesting to me about the places where the magenta cast is showing up, is the variability. The cases range from horrible (the parking lot shot from Phillip) to barely noticeable (the vagrant shot by Benton). Benton's "white paper" tests also displayed some variability. It would be interesting to determine if there are consistent conditions that create (or eliminate) the magenta cast.

Benton, can you tell me approximately the angle of the sun to your camera in the vagrant shot vs the more recent one with the guy standing in shades? Phillip, what was the sun angle on the parking lot shot?

What's interesting to me about the places where the magenta cast is showing up, is the variability. The cases range from horrible (the parking lot shot from Phillip) to barely noticeable (the vagrant shot by Benton). Benton's "white paper" tests also displayed some variability. It would be interesting to determine if there are consistent conditions that create (or eliminate) the magenta cast.

Benton, can you tell me approximately the angle of the sun to your camera in the vagrant shot vs the more recent one with the guy standing in shades? Phillip, what was the sun angle on the parking lot shot?

Ivon, The Vagrant shot the sun was at about 3 o'clock over the cameras left and in the shot of the guy with sunglasses, the sun was at about 5 o'clock over my right shoulder.
To me, it doesn't really matter what particular lighting condition causes this. I cannot keep a list of dos and don'ts when shooting beyond standard cinematography practices. We should be able to point the camera in any direction at anything and not get a cast.

What's interesting to me about the places where the magenta cast is showing up, is the variability. The cases range from horrible (the parking lot shot from Phillip) to barely noticeable (the vagrant shot by Benton). Benton's "white paper" tests also displayed some variability. It would be interesting to determine if there are consistent conditions that create (or eliminate) the magenta cast.

Benton, can you tell me approximately the angle of the sun to your camera in the vagrant shot vs the more recent one with the guy standing in shades? Phillip, what was the sun angle on the parking lot shot?

Ivon, The Vagrant shot the sun was at about 3 o'clock over the cameras left and in the shot of the guy with sunglasses, the sun was at about 5 o'clock over my right shoulder.
To me, it doesn't really matter what particular lighting condition causes this. I cannot keep a list of dos and don'ts when shooting beyond standard cinematography practices. We should be able to point the camera in any direction at anything and not get a cast.

No, of course you shouldn't have to deal with dos and don'ts because of a camera issue. I'm not suggesting some kind of work around. I'm just curious as to a cause. Pure curiosity. It's BMs issue to correct. Not yours or mine.

fpn.jpg (252.35 KiB) Viewed 12645 times

i got this from a next Post you can find it here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46412&p=269602#p269602

that's a lot of Magenta

Maybe a thermal issue? Perhaps some of the sensors aren't properly mounted on the heatsink or thermal paste was unevenly applied.

Maybe a thermal issue? Perhaps some of the sensors aren't properly mounted on the heatsink or thermal paste was unevenly applied.

Could be why the turret was not released if that is the case. Unless it's just because they wanted the mini out first.

fpn.jpg

i got this from a next Post you can find it here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46412&p=269602#p269602

that's a lot of Magenta

Definitely John, it's most noticeable in the right wall in the top photo. They're just too many affected sensors showing up! It seems like it's likely a production issue, as it would be insane if they knew it had this issue and still went through with production.

Hold on.. the frames/thread John Greene posted are from the Micro Cinema Camera!
Completely different cam/sensor..

Hold on.. the frames/thread John Greene posted are from the Micro Cinema Camera!
Completely different cam/sensor..

I don't think that is the same problem. Looks more like a white balance issue in those frames.

Here's a new real world test: Oh what lovely magenta corners! Rokinon 35mm T11 ISO 800 180*shutter Schneider True-Cut 680 Tiffen WW1.5 ND

Yep, that's exactly what mine looks like. So the question is, did we get messed up cameras? Or is this how the new sensors just are? Because if this how they just are, then I would take the old sensor over this one any day....this is ridiculous. A year of waiting just to get a sensor with horrible magenta corners....I'm seriously considering trading my 4.6k in for a regular 4k. It would be nice if BM would address this issue...

...Its not the sensor! Its a construction or manufactoring issue. I am sure it will take a lot of time, until this problems are fixed by BMD. The only chance to get a working camera right now seems to be to exchange them. So far the Ursa Mini (4K and 4.6K) is a huge disappointment. BMD, we need cameras that WORK

fpn.jpg

i got this from a next Post you can find it here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46412&p=269602#p269602

that's a lot of Magenta

Definitely John, it's most noticeable in the right wall in the top photo. They're just too many affected sensors showing up! It seems like it's likely a production issue, as it would be insane if they knew it had this issue and still went through with production.

....they have to ship preorders first. Most of the customers will not notice the issue and be happy with their cameras. Then BMD will replace or repair cameras that are sent back by customers. Meanwhile they will search for the source of the issue and solve it (if possible). If you buy a Mini in a few mounths, you will probably get a nice working camera.There will probably be no call back or public information except in this forum, because they have to minimize the financial damage ....Of course this is only, what I expect, but we will see....

Hold on.. the frames/thread John Greene posted are from the Micro Cinema Camera!
Completely different cam/sensor..

I don't think that is the same problem. Looks more like a white balance issue in those frames.

Yup that's what I meant, sorry should have made it more clear

I know that there is an existing problem with some of the Ursa 4.6ks regarding this issue... but muddling it up with completely unrelated topics/post doesn't help anyone...

So I know this isn't a very good test but it kind of shows how these pink/magenta corners are affecting the image. This is just shot in prores LT on a canon 24-105 at 400 ISO. All I know is this never looked this way on my BMPC 4k. The magenta on the bottom corners is awful.

Welcome to the club!

I've had similar results and forwarded them to bmd. They are looking into it. Did you passed that .dng to bmd?

Hold on.. the frames/thread John Greene posted are from the Micro Cinema Camera!
Completely different cam/sensor..

Yes sorry it is. but it also seem to have the same problem

Yes sorry it is. but it also seem to have the same problem

Hm how did you arrive at that conclusion? These are not-so-great screenshots from the preview window.. mixed lighting situation probably color balance off plus we don't know anything about the lens used...

It's orb-gate all over again.

Magenta is everywhere.

In the other thread I linked to a similar Sony F55 issue with "grids" and low and behold it had a magenta tinge to its "issues" as well.

http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/F55 ... d-p/201051


JB.

I just got this email from Josh Stroh from Blackmagic technical support:

Hello Benton,
Thank you very much for being so thorough. I've forwarded this information along to my supervisors and hopefully we'll have some good news for you shortly.

Best,

Josh Stroh
Blackmagic Design, Technical Support

So Blackmagic is definitely looking into this. Many thanks to Josh Stroh for pushing this up the chain!

Just got the same e-mail Benton, he forwarded it to the developers team. Will update when i hear from them.

I just got an email back from BlackMagic....

Hi Phillip,

I just talked to the engineers and it is something that we are aware of and try to fix. For now, to prevent the magenta hues on your corners, you can try different lens and camera setting or use Resolve to fix it.

Thank you.

Regards,

Riz
Blackmagic Design

Hopefully they fix it soon!

I just got an email back from BlackMagic....

Hi Phillip,

I just talked to the engineers and it is something that we are aware of and try to fix. For now, to prevent the magenta hues on your corners, you can try different lens and camera setting or use Resolve to fix it.

Thank you.

Regards,

Riz
Blackmagic Design

Hopefully they fix it soon!

It would be helpful if they could show exactly how to fix it in resolve or which lens and camera settings work better than others.

I just got an email back from BlackMagic....

Hi Phillip,

I just talked to the engineers and it is something that we are aware of and try to fix. For now, to prevent the magenta hues on your corners, you can try different lens and camera setting or use Resolve to fix it.

Thank you.

Regards,

Riz
Blackmagic Design

Hopefully they fix it soon!

It would be helpful if they could show exactly how to fix it in resolve or which lens and camera settings work better than others.

To be honest, I don't think they really know.....but yea it would be nice

I just got an email back from BlackMagic....

Hi Phillip,

I just talked to the engineers and it is something that we are aware of and try to fix. For now, to prevent the magenta hues on your corners, you can try different lens and camera setting or use Resolve to fix it.

Thank you.

Regards,

Riz
Blackmagic Design

Hopefully they fix it soon!

At least BMD admits that they are aware of the issue. Would wait till the issue is fixed at the production level. A global solution in Davinci Resolve may not work in all situations. And while shooting you need to use most of the lenses you have and sometimes need to change camera settings.

Camera setting: to minimize the problems if your camera is affected, shoot in 4K raw or UHD ProRes windows.


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On the topic of overall magenta casts, seems like Sony has the issue enough that someone made a LUT specifically to address magenta casts, maybe someone do the same for the 4.6K?

http://www.hingsberg.com/index.php/2016 ... ntakiller/

Hi Steven,

I'm the creator of the Magenta Killer 3D LUT pack for Sony camera's recording in slog3/sgamut3.cine.

The magenta cast on Sony is actually not that prominent as the name I've chosen for my 3D LUT pack suggests. From being involved heavily in the online community for Sony camera's since the days of the Sony F3 model, I've seen very few cases where a user complained about magenta casts in their images from the newer F-series camera (FS7, F5 and F55).

Also it should be known that one of the LUT's released by Sony called "LC-709A" which is meant to emulate the REC709 from the Alexa can tend to turn footage a bit magenta on some peoples footage. From where I'm sitting this is the fault of the LUT and not the image from the camera. ie. If you grade the footage by hand there is no magenta, but if you add the Sony LC-709A LUT it may rear it's ugly head. My Magenta Killer 3D LUT pack is actually meant to be used as a substitute to the LC-709A Sony LUT and the variations I've created around it help boost skin tones in various degrees. NOTE however; it's not to say that a specific lens, ND filter, or other factors won't create coloured tints on Sony camera's, of course they can.

There was also some reference made to a Sony grid issue from a few years back and just for clarity this was not a solid color cast, or a corner cast that would appear if you covered the lens mount with a white piece of paper. The grid issue would only occur under very specific conditions (usually under heavy backlighting or shooting to create sun flares) and was eventually deemed to be caused by either a small light leak entering the side of the camera which caused some light reflections to the side of the sensor resulting with a grid artifact that you could see laying on top of the image. ie. You literally would see a lined grid pattern and since it tended to happen when shooting sun flares, often the flare would turn purple. The fix by Sony was replacing part of the internal ND filter assembly I believe, while others were able to eliminate it with a small mask or by adjusting their matte box to block some light from entering the camera. In my three years owning and operating the F55 under a variety of conditions I have personally never once experienced it. Anyway, this is not the same a solid color tint or cast straight across an image or appearing as a color cast in corners under "general" conditions.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending Sony or anything, only trying to say that Sony's issues are really not the same as what new URSA 4.6K owners are reporting here. I am following the development on this issue with the URSA mini 4.6k very closely because I was next on the list with a dealer to purchase one but given this latest developing issue and fact there are no-returns and only RMA return to manufacturer for repair policy, there's no way I can afford to have my money tied up whilst the camera flies back and fourth between me, the dealer and manufacturer. If this gets sorted then I will resume with my purchase but until then I have to wait.

By the way here is a paper lens mount test I shot today on the F55 in CineEI mode, slog3, 4400k, 0db gain, 640 ISO, MLUT 709-A enabled, no internal ND's, paper exposed for 65% IRE. Small adjust to primary gain in DaVinci to color balance.

Camera setting: to minimize the problems if your camera is affected, shoot in 4K raw or UHD ProRes windows.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I can understand, by shooting 4K you are eliminating the corners. That is obvious. But why would I shoot 4K in a 4.6 camera? Who will take care of my supposedly S35 lensing?

Subrata, I should add a sarcasm emoji indicator at the end of my post. I agree limiting oneself to a 4K UHD window defeats the purpose of shooting with a Super 35 sensor. It's a workaround but not a solution.


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So this is normal but will be fixed?
https://vimeo.com/162124835/917004fed3

So here's two more shots I took today. These were Prores 422, UHD, Full Sensor, 5600k white balance, Rokinon Cine 85mm, f/20, ISO 400. The Pink in the bottom corners is driving me crazy....I'll post the same pics with a little color added...

And here they are with just a little bit of color added. I REALLY wish BlackMagic would address this soon, or give me some level of comfort that I will have a $5000 camera that actually looks better than my iPhone at some point soon......Please Blackmagic??

Amazing how quiet all the banger onnerers have become when it comes to the 'Magenta' issue....which seems to come in three sizes :-

1. Cameras with absolutely no issue (Feels like this is the vast majority)

2. Cameras which are like the Leica or Arri Sensor and it's just a Colour Cast and easy to fix (Majority of the Rest)

3. Cameras which have a 3D creation of Magenta, which can be minimised but in reality is embarrassing for BMD (Seems likes a small minority but very public)

At the end of the day we had someone point out a possible issue right at the get go and of course De'Nile River got in the way, along with the 'High School Cheer Squad' following up in earnest.

Only a gut feel and have said it since day one, but with a sensor of this size which was more than likely designed for astronomy and is heavily dependant on thermal consistency across the frame....seems once again BMD are being struck down with a manufacturing quality issue.

But of course we still have the ever so helpful posters saying how their camera is fine....arghhh, if you were serious about looking after your mates, we would all just dive in to support the poor bastards that have ended up with a lemon.

2. Cameras which are like the Leica or Arri Sensor and it's just a Colour Cast and easy to fix (Majority of the Rest)

Not sure why, but you're trying to rewrite history. John's Leica is anything but an even cast, and it's not unique.

http://diglloyd.com/prem/s/MSI/publish/ ... glyPT=true



Leica with a Zeiss 21mm.

And has anyone else noticed that people with the biggest problems in this thread tend to be using cheap lenses like Rokinons?

2. Cameras which are like the Leica or Arri Sensor and it's just a Colour Cast and easy to fix (Majority of the Rest)

Not sure why, but you're trying to rewrite history. John's Leica is anything but an even cast, and it's not unique.

http://diglloyd.com/prem/s/MSI/publish/ ... glyPT=true



Leica with a Zeiss 21mm.

And has anyone else noticed that people with the biggest problems in this thread tend to be using cheap lenses like Rokinons?

Well I get the same results whether I use Canon lens or Rokinon lens. Also, the magenta corners don't appear at all when used on my BMPC4k, so I can't image it's the lenses.

2. Cameras which are like the Leica or Arri Sensor and it's just a Colour Cast and easy to fix (Majority of the Rest)

Not sure why, but you're trying to rewrite history. John's Leica is anything but an even cast, and it's not unique.

http://diglloyd.com/prem/s/MSI/publish/ ... glyPT=true



Leica with a Zeiss 21mm.

And has anyone else noticed that people with the biggest problems in this thread tend to be using cheap lenses like Rokinons?

Yeah, you are completely correct, am trying to rewrite history by distracting everyone with something that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual issue...and a stills camera at that. As for the comment about Rokinon...what the ?

Once again Self Selection works a treat....

I'm not trying to suggest it's the lens by itself on any camera, just wondering if there's certain lenses in combination with the 4.6K that's much worse than other lenses?

Andrew, you're a serious troll. The only time you post is to jump on the band wagon of issues. It's not a distraction. It's pointing out that this ISN'T a unique problem and one that hasn't stopped people from using their cameras. Just like FPN.

Yeah, you are completely correct, am trying to rewrite history by distracting everyone with something that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual issue...and a stills camera at that.

Here's how it went,

You mentioned Leica has an even cast.
I immediately showed you were wrong and Lecia has the same magenta vignette issue.
You accused me of distracting the issue by showing a stills camera.

That's troll behaviour. Pure and simple.

The article I linked talks about the ray angles of certain lenses. I asked if anyone had noticed that certain lenses keep being mentioned here with issues, perhaps because their ray angles are part of the problem and maybe other lenses have different ray angles and don't cause the issue. You respond with "what the?" because you're mindless troll.

We're talking about different issues that have similar image outcomes.

There is....

1. Sensor Shading

and

2. lens shading

Both of these are "google-able" issues that you can easily look for examples of...

and we also seem to have here.....

3. Corners that are a different colour to what's in the middle.

jb

Yeah, you are completely correct, am trying to rewrite history by distracting everyone with something that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual issue...and a stills camera at that.

Here's how it went,

You mentioned Leica has an even cast.
I immediately showed you were wrong and Lecia has the same magenta vignette issue.
You accused me of distracting the issue by showing a stills camera.

That's troll behaviour. Pure and simple.

The article I linked talks about the ray angles of certain lenses. I asked if anyone had noticed that certain lenses keep being mentioned here with issues, perhaps because their ray angles are part of the problem and maybe other lenses have different ray angles and don't cause the issue. You respond with "what the?" because you're mindless troll.

And then the name calling started...I have no idea who you are, what you do, what you stand for etc and yet I wouldn't think to use an abusive term towards you.

If you are commenting about my support for those individuals that seem to be experiencing particular problems with their own individual cameras, well maybe this is what makes me someone to target....good for me as it seems to be a fundamental difference as to how I think and behave versus others.

All the while there is deafening silence from the manufacturer....

All the while there is deafening silence from the manufacturer....

That's not a fair representation Andrew.

The product manager has commented in this actual thread. It doesn't get any more senior than Kris.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46112&start=100#p268208

JB

All the while there is deafening silence from the manufacturer....

Which boils down to I was right, you were wrong, you can't argue it and won't admit it so side step it and back to your crusade since you lost that battle.

Then John immediately proves you wrong on that point too. Oh dear. Getting embarrassing now.

Nice one Andrew. Hopefully all this trolling isn't getting in the way of actual work and going out and shooting stuff.