URSA Mini 4.6k The Original™ Magenta Cast Issue

Hi Guys,

I am going to have to stand corrected and take back my initial thoughts towards this topic.

My camera too suffers from some kind of sensor bug. While Magenta is the most obvious symptom there are plenty others.

I have gone ahead and made a repro case in this following thread. It would be interesting if anyone with a URSA Mini 4.6 could try the Repro Case with the Cap on the Turret - to see if each sensor is suffering from the same problem or each sensor is suffering from the same problem but on various parts of the sensors...

Sorry for not if, initially, I came across as doubtful towards those who encountered this problem before I did

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46656

I'm happy to see that in the end wasn't my balcony screaming magenta on corners

I wrote BM, they're asking raw file of:
- White surface
- Even illumination
- Zebra set to 95% (to guarantee no clipping)
- No lens

send them to support email.

.. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor..

Thanks for answering here Kristian,

I'm very dunce about, but can I ask you why all reports here shows magenta corners with always the same pattern? (all corners, but right side more than left especially on upper right)
I have no knowledge of the laws of physics on light, but I would believe that different lens on different lights situation should produce different pattern of this issue

There are 2 distinct topics being discussed in this thread.

One topic is that there is a magenta bias in the image. If you have a look at various side by side comparisons of cameras that have been posted online, you will quickly notice that different cameras from different manufacturers lean towards different colour temperatures right out of the box. This is simply how the sensors have been white balanced by default. This can be tweaked and adjusted by users either via tint control adjustments or in their color grading software. There is currently no option for tint control settings in the camera but this is something we can look into as a software update.

The second topic is to do with the magenta corners exhibited in some of the samples posted here. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design. You can find many examples of this happening on many other camera systems and also a myriad of ways to deal with this. The reason there seems to be cameras that exhibit this phenomenon more than other cameras is to do with the combinations of different types of lenses, different aperture or focal length, and even variances between the same model of lenses.

We are always happy to help if you think you have an issue with your camera. The best thing is to contact your local support offices.

So BMD still doesn't know what the issue is or made a formal statement. Awesome.
I want this camera and know it can produce, im just afraid of getting a "bad" one. No one really knows what the ratio of Good to Bad units out there is there?
Also if you get a "bad" one you can RMA and BMD will swap you a new one?

So any updates on RMAs? I mean I know SOME cameras are fine and thats great! Thats the camera we all obviously WANT, but if BMD is trying to spin this isnt a problem idk what to do here.

I want a Mini 4.6k, but not if its gonna be defective and untrustworthy. This is so frustrating.

So the current word from BMD is that they are looking into it...

"Kristian Lam wrote:
There are 2 distinct topics being discussed in this thread.

One topic is that there is a magenta bias in the image. If you have a look at various side by side comparisons of cameras that have been posted online, you will quickly notice that different cameras from different manufacturers lean towards different colour temperatures right out of the box. This is simply how the sensors have been white balanced by default. This can be tweaked and adjusted by users either via tint control adjustments or in their color grading software. There is currently no option for tint control settings in the camera but this is something we can look into as a software update.

The second topic is to do with the magenta corners exhibited in some of the samples posted here. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design. You can find many examples of this happening on many other camera systems and also a myriad of ways to deal with this. The reason there seems to be cameras that exhibit this phenomenon more than other cameras is to do with the combinations of different types of lenses, different aperture or focal length, and even variances between the same model of lenses.

We are always happy to help if you think you have an issue with your camera. The best thing is to contact your local support offices."


This seriously makes me sick to my stomach... It sounds like they saying there is no real issue and that we gotta "deal with it"

Here is a different test showing the issue. He claims he thought his camera was initially fine, then noticed it appear.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46656

Im not saying ALL 4.6ks are bad or messed up. Ive seen really good ones. Im just trying to help spread info around so we know what the issue is and BMD can take notice and figure out how to fix this.

Hoping I dont pull a short straw when I place my order soon lol

Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design.

Kristian, from this I gather that the CRA of the 4.6K sensor is 0°?

The second topic is to do with the magenta corners exhibited in some of the samples posted here. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design. You can find many examples of this happening on many other camera systems and also a myriad of ways to deal with this. The reason there seems to be cameras that exhibit this phenomenon more than other cameras is to do with the combinations of different types of lenses, different aperture or focal length, and even variances between the same model of lenses.

Always appreciate hearing directly from you and the others at BMD, Kristian, but we've seen numerous tests producing oddities even without a lens. Combine this with the fact that many of us have never seen this behavior after using a wide range of cameras (including others from BMD) and using the same lenses on those other cameras without incident, and it seems unlikely it's a lens issue. See Morten's thread where he replicates the issue with a lens cap and compares it to the Production camera, which is fine.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46656

I just recieved a camera today and will conduct the same tests and hope for the best, but it does seem like an issue. If I'm wrong about any of this, I'd be very happy to stand corrected.

There are 2 distinct topics being discussed in this thread.


The second topic is to do with the magenta corners exhibited in some of the samples posted here. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design. You can find many examples of this happening on many other camera systems and also a myriad of ways to deal with this. The reason there seems to be cameras that exhibit this phenomenon more than other cameras is to do with the combinations of different types of lenses, different aperture or focal length, and even variances between the same model of lenses.

We are always happy to help if you think you have an issue with your camera. The best thing is to contact your local support offices.

Hmm....so basically you are trying to say this is normal. In all my years of shooting I have never seen this problem on any other camera with the SAME lenses (including your own cameras). So how is this now normal? Also how can one explain to their client/director ect that this is normal when they themselves have also never seen this problem on other cameras. I'm glad good units are out there...happy for those people. I can't take the risk of having to go through 3 cameras just to get a good one like I did with my BMCC. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury since I don't live in the states.

.. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor..

Thanks for answering here Kristian,

I'm very dunce about, but can I ask you why all reports here shows magenta corners with always the same pattern? (all corners, but right side more than left especially on upper right)
I have no knowledge of the laws of physics on light, but I would believe that different lens on different lights situation should produce different pattern of this issue

Thank you Alessandro.

There are 2 distinct topics being discussed in this thread.


The second topic is to do with the magenta corners exhibited in some of the samples posted here. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design. You can find many examples of this happening on many other camera systems and also a myriad of ways to deal with this. The reason there seems to be cameras that exhibit this phenomenon more than other cameras is to do with the combinations of different types of lenses, different aperture or focal length, and even variances between the same model of lenses.

We are always happy to help if you think you have an issue with your camera. The best thing is to contact your local support offices.

Hmm....so basically you are trying to say this is normal. In all my years of shooting I have never seen this problem on any other camera with the SAME lenses (including your own cameras). So how is this now normal? Also how can one explain to their client/director ect that this is normal when they themselves have also never seen this problem on other cameras. I'm glad good units are out there...happy for those people. I can't take the risk of having to go through 3 cameras just to get a good one like I did with my BMCC. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury since I don't live in the states.

It's actually a bit disturbing that the severity of this issue is being suggested as being "normal" and it just happens from time to time. I too have been shooting a LONG time and have NEVER seen anything related to a cast as problematic as this. General global casts, YES. This mess, NO.

Its just the same when I had first got my BMCC and it had rolling banding and BMD tried to suggest nothing was wrong with the camera and it was behaving normal. I had to go through hell just to get another ....and guess what, same issue, so again I had to get another. I sure as heck am not going through that again. Really hope they sort it out as otherwise it seems its a great camera, and Lord knows we want to love it...but to suggest this is normal is an insult to the intelligence of customers experiencing the issue.

At last URSA MINI 4.6 EF landed in Kramfors, Sweden
So far I have not seen magenta problem, after a few days of filming, I use the Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS USM lens, 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM, 50mm f/1.4 and 24mm f/2.8 IS USM.
Hope it works out for you who are experiencing the problem.

Hey, guys.

Just to let you know - I did more tests - with and without my Tiffen 1.2 IRND today.

It was actually worse without filtration. When I panned the camera - the vignette follows. The center of my screen on my 25mm and 50mm (didn't try any other lenses) is about 10% brighter.

With the IR on - the clouds swing bluer with the issue. Without, they swing magenta.

I sent blackmagic stills; and then shot the additional tests I'd mentioned above. They responded with the same canned response I've seen from other posters - mine was just punctuated and spaced poorer. They literally wasted my day and didn't do a thing.

I have a job riding on this cam... but refuse to keep this unit out of the return period - so I'm going to return it - and RENT another for my client job (as they'd booked this camera). It sounds nuts... I know.

Gonna do a RED Raven package for clients - as I do mainly smaller shoots anymore - and I don't mind the fixed lens/crop factor. Red Raw has always been good to me.

I was going to get my own Ursa Mini PL later in the year... but am going to do a Scarlet W package now I guess.

This whole experience was just really off putting. 9 months for the camera - a primary feature disengaged - and it doesn't even work. They act as if I have no idea of what sensor shading or color casts are. I grew up on Sony Cools and Panasonic Warms. I've directed cable features and have dealt with the old school issues (like broken mirrors on the old P+S technic 35mm adapters).

What's wrong with my camera is the sensor itself.

As someone who's purchased the Cinema and Production Cameras (I was lucky on mine - bought late and have no Fixed Pattern Noise); actually spent money back in the day on a Resolve license and have lead them many customers...I'm out.

Best of luck to all of you!!!

Never had to make a return to B+H... Hoping it goes smoothly. There's a lot going back. The camera; the handle; the viewfinder; the Quick Release plate... I bought the CFast off Ebay - so I guess I'm out of luck there. LOL. Oh well. Just want something that works and is trustworthy. The Dragon sensor always has been.

Cheers.

- Mike

Hey Guys....just a tip, if you are going to go to the trouble of doing a Lens Cap On Test, then do something like this...with no compression :-

1. Start with camera warmer or cooler than normal and if possible, in dark room
2. Turn on and immediately start capturing DNG's
3. Continue for say 15 minutes as temp should stabilise
4. Turn off, wait 10 secs, turn on and capture some final DNG's at stable thermal temp.

Have no idea if Thermal Stability is related but is worth a crack....if you see something it should be obvious.

If you do then up playback speed to show us.

Hi, everyone.

New hear.

I'd just reached out to Blackmagic and sent over 5 DNG's...

Our studio's new 4.6K is experiencing a really hard to deal with vignette - and on our 25mm Zeiss - the entire right third of the frame (more in the corners) isn't only really magenta - but super dark. When I pan - it looks like the entire image has a vignette filter applied to the middle.

It's impossible to shoot skies or wides as is right now.

On each lens - the vignette changes. It's worse on our Primes than the 70-200 Canon zoom.

I am new and cannot post URLS to the still grabs - but feel free to message me for a link to the Flicker Account I just created to post them.

I shot a white chart exposed to 70 on all our lenses in a studio yesterday - with an IR applied - it looked OK but still had drop off around the corners - at 80 on the cyc, the image just fell apart. We shot at 2.0 to avoid IR pollution.

All of this was shot at 800ISO - the daytime stuff in the stills was shot with an IR and ND - lens at 2.0.

Look forward to feedback. Kinda sick to my stomach about all this today. Have 2 jobs booked with the camera starting in May - and already had waited 9 months for it to arrive.

- Mike

...dont think about it to much, ..just return the camera to where you bought it. In germany we can retreat from a deal in two weeks after the arrival of the item without explaining your reasons....BMD is delivering cameras with an manufaction issue. They dont stop the delivery, altough they know about the issue. They want to sell as many cameras before NAB as possible. HDR will be a big thing at NAB 2016 and in a couple of months the 15 stops of the Ursa Mini will not be an advantage anymore.

Anyone with a PL mount shot anything or have anything to show?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One now has to wonder if the GS was the only issue holding up shipment?! Perhaps this was a known problem they couldn't fix. They must have a god awful lot of parts inventory!

The second topic is to do with the magenta corners exhibited in some of the samples posted here. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design. You can find many examples of this happening on many other camera systems and also a myriad of ways to deal with this. The reason there seems to be cameras that exhibit this phenomenon more than other cameras is to do with the combinations of different types of lenses, different aperture or focal length, and even variances between the same model of lenses.

Hi Kristian Lam, Thanks for your explanation, could you please address two things:
1. Why the sensor test without a lens still shows an uneven magenta cast on certain cameras?
2. You say there are a "myriad of ways to deal with this". Could you please describe or point us in the direction of the three best approaches to fix this problem? If possible, could BM create a "Fixing the Magenta Issue In Post" post? Thanks!

Fixable in post:
I understand that this may seem to be fixable in post but it is not. It's a effect that changes with the angle of light leaving a lens. Different lenses at different focal lengths create different math on the sensor edges resulting from cross talk between photosites as the light is less linear at the sensor edges. 3d images reacting with 3d color distortion localised to a specific sensor area is not fixable with a 2d shape in Resolve. Mapping the sensor response with each lens and focal length becomes the next possible outcome but even then the math gets hairy as for instance fine nuanced skin in a close up on a face with red makeup moves through the correction map. With all the complexity the best solution ends up being: design a better sensor.
Interaction with lenses:
The less linear the light the more pronounced the issue. As we go to the edges of the sensor the light is less linear, without any lens the light is even less linear.
Cause:
Sensor color shading is a major component of sensor design. There are white papers easily found on the subject. Open question as to whether this is fixable with firmware after a sensor design and the camera itself are already in production. That's the million dollar question right now.

So i guess when one needs to hand off footage your gonna have to give them instructions on how to fix this "normal" behaviour in post, and try to tell them some fairy tale that many other cameras exhibit this behaviour. Instructions BMD have not even tried to offer either lol. This whole thing is a joke.

For all those that have a good cam...shoot it up. Have fun

There are 2 distinct topics being discussed in this thread.

One topic is that there is a magenta bias in the image. If you have a look at various side by side comparisons of cameras that have been posted online, you will quickly notice that different cameras from different manufacturers lean towards different colour temperatures right out of the box. This is simply how the sensors have been white balanced by default. This can be tweaked and adjusted by users either via tint control adjustments or in their color grading software. There is currently no option for tint control settings in the camera but this is something we can look into as a software update.

The second topic is to do with the magenta corners exhibited in some of the samples posted here. This is not a sensor or hardware issue. Some of you have already correctly pointed out that this has to do with how the light rays are hitting the sensor. This is especially true for lenses that are not telecentric by design. You can find many examples of this happening on many other camera systems and also a myriad of ways to deal with this. The reason there seems to be cameras that exhibit this phenomenon more than other cameras is to do with the combinations of different types of lenses, different aperture or focal length, and even variances between the same model of lenses.

We are always happy to help if you think you have an issue with your camera. The best thing is to contact your local support offices.

I still remember the first day I got a digital camera. It is very long ago. So long ago that Brazil was just shy of winning the world cup final in the Rose Bowl, Pasadena.

Yesterday was the first time in all that time spent with digital cameras that I have ever encountered what the UM46 does to images.
I have been paid good money for color grading images the better part of 10 years. And yet never have I had to deal with SUCH an issue.
After getting my UM46 this past Friday - I refused to believe that such an issue could actually happen in a 2016 camera and if you read back in this here thread, I suggesting to those who had the issue that they could take care of it by proper white balancing their images. This is NOT the case at all. And I stood bent but corrected....

The UM46 most definitely is suffering from malfunctioning on a sensor level. Be that firmware or hardware is yet to be released by you guys. But one fact remains abundantly clear -> The images taken by the UM46 are comprised of severe artifacts resulting in Magenta AND Cyan Casts. Where those artifacts appear on the sensor seem to be highly random and varies from sensor to sensor.

It is not very time consuming to shoot a black frame of some of your cameras, boost the noise and check to see if you find a gradient localized noise rectangle as opposed to an evenly lit localized noise rectangle. Some images even exhibit blobs on top of the gradient. This mind you - without ANY lens attached. Just the sensor taking a picture of itself and its capabilities, so to speak.

You mention a myriad of ways of dealing with this issue. There are none. Unless you wanna spend 2 hours in photoshop with EACH image drawing a BUNCH of radial gradients and using them as adjustment masks.

I would like to draw your attention to this post
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46656

If you scroll down to the part where I am posting an image shot on a white stone background and a center gray card, you will immediately, being a colorist, identify that this is problem requiring expert attention and would ONLY be done if the shot had 1000 of extras and expensive actors in it. The time it would take to correctly neutralize this image would be severe.

This might alleviate some of some of the confusion on whether people have a magenta problem or not. What is the native color temperature of the sensor. I don't think its 5600K and I don't have a colorimeter to properly test it. And maybe if they give us BETTER IN CAMERA exposure tools, False color, Waveform, RGB Parade people could properly test the cameras and get similar results. I also recommend adding a tint slider into the firmware as well. I honestly believe there may be an issue with some cameras but others just dont know how to process the image.

I also recommend adding a tint slider into the firmware as well. I honestly believe there may be an issue with some cameras but others just dont know how to process the image.

That would only matter of shooting to a baked codec. Not for RAW. The entire WB is done in Post. Hence RAW.

So i guess when one needs to hand off footage your gonna have to give them instructions on how to fix this "normal" behaviour in post, and try to tell them some fairy tale that many other cameras exhibit this behaviour. Instructions BMD have not even tried to offer either lol. This whole thing is a joke.

For all those that have a good cam...shoot it up. Have fun

...there is a lot of money in the game, so they cant do, what they would probably like to do...

So i guess when one needs to hand off footage your gonna have to give them instructions on how to fix this "normal" behaviour in post, and try to tell them some fairy tale that many other cameras exhibit this behaviour. Instructions BMD have not even tried to offer either lol. This whole thing is a joke.

For all those that have a good cam...shoot it up. Have fun

...there is a lot of money in the game, so they cant do, what they would probably like to do...

You've probably hit the nail on the head.

Ok,
Since for BM is the quality of the glass the issue we're speaking about, yesterday I had the opportunity to share my 4,6K with a skilled Italian DoP.

We tested a Zeiss CP.2 50mm T2.1 on the BM Ursa Mini 4,6K EF side by side with Red Scarlet MX and Sony PXW-FS7 on the same controlled light environment.
Here a comparison of untouched jpg from BM and RED
both @ ISO800, 3200K, T11 180°

RED Scarlet MX


---
BlackMagic URSA Mini 4,6K


I'm returning mine this morning, I hope my reseller will accept it back

I don't understand why those people claiming not to have any magenta issues with their UM46 don't want to share a .dng shot without lens, so we can be at least assured there are some cameras, which work as expected.

There are at least 5-6 people reporting to not have the issue, but none of them has shared a properly shot sensor test. So, it seems to me as either they based their claim on some general footage that could be not exhibiting the problem the best way, or for some reason they don't see the need of posting a sample proving that not all cameras have an issue.

If I have missed such a post, I'll be happy if someone could post a link.

Ok,
Since for BM is the quality of the glass the issue we're speaking about, yesterday I had the opportunity to share my 4,6K with a skilled Italian DoP.

We tested a Zeiss CP.2 50mm T2.1 on the BM Ursa Mini 4,6K EF side by side with Red Scarlet MX and Sony PXW-FS7 on the same controlled light environment.
Here a comparison of untouched jpg from BM and RED
both @ ISO800, 3200K, T11 180°

RED Scarlet MX


---
BlackMagic URSA Mini 4,6K


I'm returning mine this morning, I hope my reseller will accept it back

That looks like a uniform magenta tint. Easy to correct with the WB and Tint controls for RAW. Even the RED needs correcting as there is a green tint in that image.

That looks like a uniform magenta tint. Easy to correct with the WB and Tint controls for RAW. Even the RED needs correcting as there is a green tint in that image.

Hi Adam,
As told it's straight out of the camera, sure it's not a color corrected snap, it's just a reference that looks very ugly to me (corners). Again, I'm not arguing about the magenta tint to be corrected all over the image,
but if you check better at corners you'll see that they present a whole different and more "vivid" magenta than other side of image.
Take a look at my arm sleeve on the right side; see the color near my elbow and compare it over the corner

I don't understand why those people claiming not to have any magenta issues with their UM46 don't want to share a .dng shot without lens, so we can be at least assured there are some cameras, which work as expected.

There are at least 5-6 people reporting to not have the issue, but none of them has shared a properly shot sensor test. So, it seems to me as either they based their claim on some general footage that could be not exhibiting the problem the best way, or for some reason they don't see the need of posting a sample proving that not all cameras have an issue.

If I have missed such a post, I'll be happy if someone could post a link.

Here you go. Shot this morning just for you.

DNG in Resolve

Resolve_RAW_adjustment.jpg (574.03 KiB) Viewed 12142 times

White surface, no lens. Yes there is fall off in the corners but there is not colour shift in the corners. Even my A7s has fall off in the corners.

Download the DNG here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2xdymzoh33rm1 ... 9.dng?dl=0

That looks like a uniform magenta tint. Easy to correct with the WB and Tint controls for RAW. Even the RED needs correcting as there is a green tint in that image.

Hi Adam,
As told it's straight out of the camera, sure it's not a color corrected snap, it's just a reference that looks very ugly to me (corners). Again, I'm not arguing about the magenta tint to be corrected all over the image,
but if you check better at corners you'll see that they present a whole different and more "vivid" magenta than other side of image.
Take a look at my arm sleeve on the right side; see the color near my elbow and compare it over the corner

Correctly white balance that shot. See if you still have a colour ****. What I'm seeing is a constant magenta cast with fall off in the corners. That fall off is causing the magnet to look more "vivid" (as you put it). If you correct the white balance you will probably be left with a neutral image with fall off in the corners.

Share a DNG.

That looks like a uniform magenta tint. Easy to correct with the WB and Tint controls for RAW. Even the RED needs correcting as there is a green tint in that image.

With all due respect. That does not look like a uniform magenta cast all all. Left side iPad its not magenta.

Outer left side of image (first 100 pixels or so) are totally magenta then after about 100 pixels they drop abruptly to a little less magenta and falls off as they approach center mass. This isNOT a simple cast by any measure.

You can purchase xScope (Mac Only) and do the screen color measurement mathematically if your screen has difficulties revealing the magenta issue.

That looks like a uniform magenta tint. Easy to correct with the WB and Tint controls for RAW. Even the RED needs correcting as there is a green tint in that image.

With all due respect. That does not look like a uniform magenta cast all all. Left side iPad its not magenta.

Outer left side of image (first 100 pixels or so) are totally magenta then after about 100 pixels they drop abruptly to a little less magenta and falls off as they approach center mass. This isNOT a simple cast by any measure.

You can purchase xScope (Mac Only) and do the screen color measurement mathematically if your screen has difficulties revealing the magenta issue.

It's an un-corrected image. The lighting is not flat (look at the RED example). If he shares a DNG we can look at it corrected and then make a call.

Here you go. Shot this morning just for you.

The attachment Resolve_RAW_adjustment.jpg is no longer available

White surface, no lens. Yes there is fall off in the corners but there is not colour shift in the corners. Even my A7s has fall off in the corners.

Download the DNG here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2xdymzoh33rm1 ... 9.dng?dl=0

Hi Adam,

I too downloaded the image you shot this morning. I noticed that you were conducting the test while in Film Mode. Not in r709 Mode. Thus the problem - if there - would potentially not reveal itself.

I pulled your image into resolve and after putting the image in the r709 mode and lowering gamma with a curve - it clearly shows that your sensor (while less than mine) is NOT producing an even result - as a matter of fact the left side of your image Magenta and the right side cyan That is not uniform.

Also - are you sure you did not have a lens on as you did the shot ? Should you edges darken down like that without a Lens ?

Here are the results :

adamComplete.jpg (763.04 KiB) Viewed 12115 times

adamResolve.jpg (782.17 KiB) Viewed 12115 times

It's an un-corrected image.

Exactly - hence the cast. Which is NON - Uniform and thus impossible or very difficult to get right.
You can grade a jpeg you know. While quality suffers it will still give you a good idea as to whether the cast is indeed uniform. Which I can tell you, it is not.

I'm waiting the DoP to allow me to share DNG,
Meanwhile, I tried balancing it.
Cooled a little, and then moved to the green till the white on left side of the iPad started shifting to green.
Now you can see much better of what I was speaking about
WB 2850
G/M -15


G/M -50
Here totally greenish.. but magenta still screaming on corners

Morton, I mean no offense here, but I think you are doing something very unnatural to Adam's DNG.
After white balancing Adam's DNG using the raw controls in Resolve, it registered completely neutral on my scopes and looked neutral all the way across on my calibrated Flanders Scientific monitor. I did set the raw controls to REC709 color and gamma and even when I pulled the image down much farther than I'd ever do in a real grade, it remained color neutral. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it to look anything like your version.

Are you jacking the color boost all the way to 100 to get those crazy fluorescent hues? Perhaps you can upload a powergrade so we can see what settings you're using to get such wild results.

Alessandro,

this is the result of white balancing for the Top of the iPad (left edge of iPad).
Making that white WILL leave the left image magenta. Making the left side image white will mess up all the other colors.

Above applies only to adjusting temperature to remove a simple color cast. One would have to apply advanced color techniques to correctly neutralize this image.

Here is the result gamma'd down to exaggerate the result.

iPad.jpg (653.64 KiB) Viewed 12082 times

Morton, I mean no offense here, but I think you are doing something very unnatural to Adam's DNG.
After white balancing Adam's DNG using the raw controls in Resolve, it registered completely neutral on my scopes and looked neutral all the way across on my calibrated Flanders Scientific monitor. I did set the raw controls to REC709 color and gamma and even when I pulled the image down much farther than I'd ever do in a real grade, it remained color neutral. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it to look anything like your version.

Are you jacking the color boost all the way to 100 to get those crazy fluorescent hues? Perhaps you can upload a powergrade so we can see what settings you're using to get such wild results.

Hi Jaime,

none taken

Check the second image - it is the Resolve Screen shot. You can see the exact settings which I am using.

And yes I am being somewhat extreme on Adam's image. But Adams test is extreme. Just as no one would ever do what I did to a white wall - no one would ever take a photograph of a white wall with no lens and sell that to a client

Adams test was scientific and so was mine. And it reveals the non-uniform behavior of the camera.

This issue does not just pertain to white backgrounds. It is just that when white is in play Magenta is the symptom and NO ONE likes magenta. If someone has a magenta skin tone they are generally perceived to be an alcoholic.

The non-uniformness of the camera will affect ANY color and any scene. If you have a red or yellow background you will NOT be able to grade it uniformly - the result won't be magenta, perhaps, but it will be color shifted non-the-less.

I don't understand why those people claiming not to have any magenta issues with their UM46 don't want to share a .dng shot without lens, so we can be at least assured there are some cameras, which work as expected.

There are at least 5-6 people reporting to not have the issue, but none of them has shared a properly shot sensor test. So, it seems to me as either they based their claim on some general footage that could be not exhibiting the problem the best way, or for some reason they don't see the need of posting a sample proving that not all cameras have an issue.

If I have missed such a post, I'll be happy if someone could post a link.

Here you go. Shot this morning just for you.

The attachment Resolve_RAW_adjustment.jpg is no longer available

White surface, no lens. Yes there is fall off in the corners but there is not colour shift in the corners. Even my A7s has fall off in the corners.

Download the DNG here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2xdymzoh33rm1 ... 9.dng?dl=0

So this is what I see when I open the image in Resolve and don't apply any correction...and if I have something set incorrectly, feel free to let me know :-

uncorrected1.jpg (358.78 KiB) Viewed 12070 times

uncorrected2.jpg (71.02 KiB) Viewed 12070 times

uncorrected3.jpg (35.95 KiB) Viewed 12070 times

So this is what I see when I open the image in Resolve and don't apply any correction :-

uncorrected1.jpg

A single cast that can be white balanced to neutral.

So this is what I see when I open the image in Resolve and don't apply any correction :-

The attachment uncorrected1.jpg is no longer available

A single cast that can be white balanced to neutral.

Yep....was about to update my post but since you have said it for me, each primary color exhibits a very even falloff from top to bottom, left to right and corner to corner.

However what is a bit iffy is the difference in the type and shape of falloff between the primary colors....hence the Magenta.

Most people will struggle to balance this and doing what works a treat with the Pocket, pressing 'A' for Auto Correct certainly doesn't help...so don't do this :-

autocorrect1.jpg (632.92 KiB) Viewed 12049 times

autocorrect2.jpg (66.98 KiB) Viewed 12049 times

Here you go. Shot this morning just for you.

Resolve_RAW_adjustment.jpg

White surface, no lens. Yes there is fall off in the corners but there is not colour shift in the corners. Even my A7s has fall off in the corners.

Download the DNG here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2xdymzoh33rm1 ... 9.dng?dl=0

Hi Adam,

I too downloaded the image you shot this morning. I noticed that you were conducting the test while in Film Mode. Not in r709 Mode. Thus the problem - if there - would potentially not reveal itself.

I pulled your image into resolve and after putting the image in the r709 mode and lowering gamma with a curve - it clearly shows that your sensor (while less than mine) is NOT producing an even result - as a matter of fact the left side of your image Magenta and the right side cyan That is not uniform.

Also - are you sure you did not have a lens on as you did the shot ? Should you edges darken down like that without a Lens ?

Here are the results :

adamComplete.jpg

adamResolve.jpg

No lens.

That is a pretty extreme gamma curve. Not sure where I would ever need to push the data that far.

That is a pretty extreme gamma curve. Not sure where I would ever need to push the data that far.

Hi Adam,

you would not need to have to push the data that far. Nature could take care of that for you naturally. Image shooting this...

You in a harbor doing a job for a maritime organization shooting their brand new container ship (330 meters wide) from the side.
The color of the ship is a darker gray. The ship is sitting on nice blue waters and it is a bright and sunny day.

The ships width will fill your frame and given the natural color of the ship you will wind up with a dark gray in post.
With my Camera the ship would look quite funky and I am pretty sure that the Maritime company would ask me why I turned their brand new container ship into a piñata-colored gradient.

You could also shoot an intimate interview with a dark-atmo even colored background with lots of lights on topic. The background would naturally be darker and organically reveal the non-uniformness of the camera.

As long as one can push the even colored object into the highlight roll-off of the transfer function (Gamma or Log) )he can get away with the non-uniform shifts but as soon as those get down towards mid or lower mid tones (and thus not affected by the highlight rolloff knee) they will pop out and make it hard to correct for.

That is a pretty extreme gamma curve. Not sure where I would ever need to push the data that far.

Hi Adam,

you would not need to have to push the data that far. Nature could take care of that for you naturally. Image shooting this...

You in a harbor doing a job for a maritime organization shooting their brand new container ship (330 meters wide) from the side.
The color of the ship is a darker gray. The ship is sitting on nice blue waters and it is a bright and sunny day.

The ships width will fill your frame and given the natural color of the ship you will wind up with a dark gray in post.
With my Camera the ship would look quite funky and I am pretty sure that the Maritime company would ask me why I turned their brand new container ship into a piñata-colored gradient.

You could also shoot an intimate interview with a dark-atmo even colored background with lots of lights on topic. The background would naturally be darker and organically reveal the non-uniformness of the camera.

As long as one can push the even colored object into the highlight roll-off of the transfer function (Gamma or Log) )he can get away with the non-uniform shifts but as soon as those get down towards mid or lower mid tones (and thus not affected by the highlight rolloff knee) they will pop out and make it hard to correct for.

I'm not denying that you might have a camera that has issues. There does seem to be a few out there that look just wrong. If mine was like that I'd be in contact with BM Support to get it sorted.

Mine I feel is acceptable.

Here is a shot of a grey wall. The lighting is not perfectly flat as it's indoors and lit from a window (light meter reading was f1.4 & 5/10th on the left and f2.0 4/10th on the right) but you can see that there is no real colour shift on the grey. The corners have some fall but it's not really shifting colour. Certainly nothing like some of the examples that have been posted.

If I was filming your container ship we would not have a "piñata-colorer gradient".

UM46_xrite_1.2.1.jpg (521.4 KiB) Viewed 12024 times

Ok,
Since for BM is the quality of the glass the issue we're speaking about, yesterday I had the opportunity to share my 4,6K with a skilled Italian DoP.

We tested a Zeiss CP.2 50mm T2.1 on the BM Ursa Mini 4,6K EF side by side with Red Scarlet MX and Sony PXW-FS7 on the same controlled light environment.
Here a comparison of untouched jpg from BM and RED
both @ ISO800, 3200K, T11 180°

RED Scarlet MX


---
BlackMagic URSA Mini 4,6K


I'm returning mine this morning, I hope my reseller will accept it back

That looks like a uniform magenta tint. Easy to correct with the WB and Tint controls for RAW. Even the RED needs correcting as there is a green tint in that image.

....most cameras show a magenta cast in the right corners. This is more even, but if you buy a camera you still have to be lucky to get a good one...

Adam, can you post the CinemaDNG Raw ?

Thanks.... This is good news.

Adam, can you post the CinemaDNG Raw ?

Thanks.... This is good news.

Sure thing. Here you go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5w2cj670ldec ... 4.dng?dl=0

Adam, can you post the CinemaDNG Raw ?

Thanks.... This is good news.

Sure thing. Here you go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5w2cj670ldec ... 4.dng?dl=0

Hey Adam i check it your DNG with Photoshop it look awesome no prob with your cam
For all the other people who have problem with their camera please post DNG not a jpegs please.