URSA Mini 4.6k The Original™ Magenta Cast Issue

It's definitely a different color science for both. Also new luts for both in resolve 12.5


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Both 4K and 4.6k


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From what I can tell. It's subdued some colors especially on the Meganta side


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From what I can tell. It's subdued some colors especially on the Meganta side


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That's good news
Hoping some more People test theirs and post here. Can you post a DNG or screen shot James?

I've got a few edited ones from today's shoot


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Most of these Ive crushed down because there's so much range in this camera. All of these are graded a bit more warm with the tint slider pushed toward green to about 12 points.


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Wow I don't see any magenta issues in there as far as I can tell. Are you happy with the update and the color science?

Yes I like what they've done with it. I think they've also modified the color in the shadow and mid tone regions. I'd still prefer they figure out the overall cast and add more green in the lut which seems consistently what I'm having to do, but then again I shot this without IR cut which has a lot to do with it. I'll post ungraded grab soon on all these shots for people to see them.


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Looking at this again, it does seem that there's a bit of magenta in the lower left corner but I didn't remember seeing that in the footage


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Looking at this again, it does seem that there's a bit of magenta in the lower left corner but I didn't remember seeing that in the footage


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Where? I don't see it on these shots

Maybe under the u in the first shot? But then again I could be seeing things. All of these were done with 1 node and the lut. Loving the tint and wb options in 12.5


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While the schneider's are known to be a telecentric design, I've not found them to be a lens I love.

Like the Zeiss they tend to have a very bland or neutral look (depending on what you like) and they are very very very heavy. Did I mention how heavy they are ?

JB

You did mention you didn't like these in another thread, you also gave me advice on choosing the mount on these since they are heavy. And yes they are very heavy I tend to like neutral looking lenses though. And i really like these because they have less breathing than the cooke's and seem to handle CA better than the Cooke's as well. Sorry to go off topic..ok There's Magenta everywhere ...carry on

Let me say that they are MAGNIFICENT lenses. Very well designed and made. They are spiritually like Master Primes really. It's more a question of taste for me. The Cookes are certainly more "flawed" but that's also what a lot of people like

It's not a reflection on the lenses themselves, just what people like. I'm certain they will be a great match for the UM4.6K and will live and be appreciated well beyond this camera.

JB

I guess if I ever, in a million years, found myself in the situation where I would have a legitimate need for such fine lenses, I would prefer to go with a lens that does the least alteration to a theoretically perfect image, and steampunk it in post as needed. It seems to me that computationally it would be harder to deconvolute distortions and aberrations from a "flawed" lens than it would be to introduce them in a perfect image.

Gene you're using a lot of big words there buddy. I had to break out my "big words" translator app

Or Gene....

You use flawed lenses that react in unexpected ways on set that in the moment you react to and play more. Think about a lens flare that you "operate" in or out as you shoot the scene. That kind of dynamic affect is very very difficult to replicate well in post. A flare changes so much of the way the contrast sits aside from the actual flare.

JB.

doesn't look good:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... gital.html

doesn't look good:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... gital.html

You know what's interesting ?

Try googling the name and city for each reviewer. (the mobile version of the BH photo site shows the city they post from)

When I google your name Andreas and just add "camera" to the search, I've got a pretty good idea of who you might be.

JB

doesn't look good:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... gital.html

Only 2 of those reviews count in my opinion. The 2 verified buyers. One is 5 stars, one is 1 star. You can create an anonymous name and leave a review if you want. No verification necessary.

doesn't look good:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... gital.html

You know what's interesting ?

Try googling the name and city for each reviewer. (the mobile version of the BH photo site shows the city they post from)

When I google your name Andreas and just add "camera" to the search, I've got a pretty good idea of who you might be.

JB

Well that isn't at all creepy.

Well that isn't at all creepy.

I'm a fan of real names cause we can all know who we all are !

JB

Well that isn't at all creepy.

I'm a fan of real names cause we can all know who we all are !

JB

John we sent our camera back to the reseller and they have sent it on to Holdan (UK BM distributor) to test. Have you managed to look at these DNG's on this thread and determine yourself if the issue is real? My colleague and I did tests yesterday with lens off and lens on and could definitely see a bias on the top right of the image. With the lens off it was wholly white, but when we dropped the brightness we could see a strong bias towards magenta in the top right. Surely this is indicative of a fault?

We really hope it is fixed asap as we have clients that want to use it and from what I saw the camera was nice. We tested FPN at ISO 800 and it was worrying, but we only had one kino flo on and it was facing away from the subject in a blacked out studio, so that was probably to be expected.

John we sent our camera back to the reseller and they have sent it on to Holdan (UK BM distributor) to test. Have you managed to look at these DNG's on this thread and determine yourself if the issue is real?

Neil. You've tried to draw me a few times.

You accused me of not being responsive, not being helpful despite the fact that I've posted several times about my views, in several threads especially on testing methodologies.

Maybe you should read the whole thread/s, I thought I'd already posted my views several times over. You've already posted what you think mine are. I don't feel like being answerable to you thanks.

JB

John we sent our camera back to the reseller and they have sent it on to Holdan (UK BM distributor) to test. Have you managed to look at these DNG's on this thread and determine yourself if the issue is real?

Neil. You've tried to draw me a few times.

You accused me of not being responsive, not being helpful despite the fact that I've posted several times about my views, in several threads especially on testing methodologies.

Maybe you should read the whole thread/s, I thought I'd already posted my views several times over. You've already posted what you think mine are. I don't feel like being answerable to you thanks.

JB

I understand you may be on edge here as you are seen as the go to person to ask, but my intention was not to "draw you out", but it was a simple question and a plea for help. We have spent over 5k (in pounds not dollars) on the camera and have people waiting to use it so we can recoup some costs for it. If you think WE have an issue, or not, then I would appreciate your feedback.

You may not want to be the person to ask about this, but for whatever reason you have been cast as the face of BMD. I'm hoping that is because of your experience and expertise and not just your pretty hair?

Edit - Oh and you are not answerable to me or anyone. I'm not sure why you think you are? I apologize if you feel threatened by me. That was not my intention.

doesn't look good:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... gital.html

You know what's interesting ?

Try googling the name and city for each reviewer. (the mobile version of the BH photo site shows the city they post from)

When I google your name Andreas and just add "camera" to the search, I've got a pretty good idea of who you might be.

JB

On Amazon there are 2 reviews (1 star & 5 star - both verified buyers, same as on BH).

Strange that the price there is listed $1800 more than msrp.

http://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design ... a+mini+4.6

Statistically, taking into account only verified buyers, it would indicate you have a 50/50 chance of getting a magenta issue. Of course the sample pool is super small. Personally I'm holding back a little to see how this plays out.

Would like to see 'clinical' tests especially with UV/IR filters on. If that clears things up that would be acceptable for my situation.

doesn't look good:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1 ... gital.html

You know what's interesting ?

Try googling the name and city for each reviewer. (the mobile version of the BH photo site shows the city they post from)

When I google your name Andreas and just add "camera" to the search, I've got a pretty good idea of who you might be.

JB

Thats the danger.... Andreas Schwarz is a pretty common name in Germany. I did the Google you suggest and get pages of results. The first one being Andreas Schwarz -> Lens Maker by Leica AG.

The next AS is a Hamburg, Germany, Photographer.

If one cannot discern the right one, he could be coming to this forum inferring that Leica is moving against BMD by infiltrating on their forum. I highly doubt that it is the same Andreas Schwarz. But Google in this case aint your friend

That said, I am still waiting on Andreas Schwarz's answer as to how his UM46 is performing ?
It would be pretty off to keep relying on other people's opinions regarding this matter. HALF of those with GREAT working cameras aren't even writing here !!!

Aside from that... Half the folks here thinking they have problems, in fact did not. They had a Magenta Cast which is a cast just like a 'warm' cast - just very ugly in comparison... It had nothing to do with a manuf. issue.

They were just not used to dealing with Magenta/Green Casts. Which BTW got a GOOD step in a nice Direction with the latest Camera Update 3.2 !!!

They were just not used to dealing with Magenta/Green Casts. Which BTW got a GOOD step in a nice Direction with the latest Camera Update 3.2 !!!

Not if it's uneven across the image plane.

They were just not used to dealing with Magenta/Green Casts. Which BTW got a GOOD step in a nice Direction with the latest Camera Update 3.2 !!!

Not if it's uneven across the image plane.

Hence the word Cast... which is NOT pertaining to the non-uniformness.
Given the fact that the cam has a magenta cast folks not knowing how to deal with that thought they were suffering from the non-uniformness issue. They are TWO separate issues.

I just updated my UM46 and the magenta cast is gone! I need to try with another lens but so far my Bower 16mm 2.2 has no or VERY little tinting on the corners...very happy! Anyone else see an improvement?

I just tried the Rokinon 10mm and a tiny bit present but can barely see it...and only against white...colors much easier to grade because the tint is almost gone! Guess I will stop trying to send it back to Adorama.

No luck with the new firmware curing the magenta blues for me ;(

Here are DNG's on my UM46 both before update and after. Same white wall, within 10 minutes. Still seeing some seriously gross magenta on the edges. Like if I shot one of those white backdrop commercials it would look ridiculous...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ux7yn0b3kup6 ... SadMa?dl=0

Here is the ole no lens white paper test with the new firmware. I seem to still have a bit of dark corners ( I think this is going to be expected with this camera.) I didn't do any white balancing other than in camera to close to what my color meter said. so this is straight off the card, the camera seems to be pretty dang neutral, IMO.

Screen Shot 2016-04-19 at 6.49.25 PM.jpg (230.66 KiB) Viewed 8070 times

Screen Shot 2016-04-19 at 6.49.25 PM.jpg (230.66 KiB) Viewed 8070 times

White wall no WB with old firmware.


Same wall new firmware.



I feel sad.

Mine looks like Ryan's...it's there but easy to fix with little effort in resolve

White wall no WB with old firmware.


Same wall new firmware.



I feel sad.

I also looked at your DNG's and you're correct, there's no significant change in the un-even magenta cast. This issue really sucks. I'm going to give BMD a break at the moment because much of their staff is at NAB, but come Monday the 25th, they really need to address this issue in a complete way. If they are going to throw up their hands and say "this is just the way it is" they at least need to offer a clear post solution toward fixing this problem.

Kristian Lam said there were "a myriad of ways to deal with this." (magenta corner issue) Yet to date, has not offered ONE clear solution. (I've proposed that a LCC file solution needs to be incorporated somewhere in the chain like PhaseOne does) But I still believe that this is fundamentally a manufacturing problem, as Cameras like the 5D and 6D have none of this cast issue using the same lenses that cause a problem on the UM4.6 and they should have a problem since their sensors are much larger.

This issue is popping up on this camera with way too many very popular quality lenses. In the test I did with Fahnon, 10 out of 10 lenses created a cast! Nikon, Zeiss and Rokinon. The Rokinon is certainly a beer budget brand, but Zeiss is one of the world's most prestigious and respected optical companies! (oddly enough, the Rok 50 produced the least cast) The point is that this is not some freak oddball anomaly that only shows up with some weird plastic eBay lens! This is an extremely significant and very visible issue that if they don't address fully with a complete solution, will start costing them sales and even lead to returns of units already sold if that hasn't already begun.

I'm seeing this issue too, but in varying amounts.

Can I ask, Scott, did you shoot this in film mode or video mode? What was the focal length and aperture? Also did you do any post processing, bringing the image to Rec709 for example, increasing contrast and of saturation?

Im trying to see how bad mine is compared to others. Thanks!

Here is the ole no lens white paper test with the new firmware. I seem to still have a bit of dark corners ( I think this is going to be expected with this camera.) I didn't do any white balancing other than in camera to close to what my color meter said. so this is straight off the card, the camera seems to be pretty dang neutral, IMO.

Screen Shot 2016-04-19 at 6.49.25 PM.jpg

Screen Shot 2016-04-19 at 6.49.25 PM.jpg

I'm very jealous of this! I do think BMD needs to say something other than, essentially, that it's the lens. There is obviously an issue with a percentage of cameras and it's disturbing that they haven't acknowledged it. I'll start the RMA process tomorrow, but Benton went down that road and it left him in the same place. I guess right now I just want to know that they know it's a real problem and are doing something about it...

Here is the ole no lens white paper test with the new firmware. I seem to still have a bit of dark corners ( I think this is going to be expected with this camera.) I didn't do any white balancing other than in camera to close to what my color meter said. so this is straight off the card, the camera seems to be pretty dang neutral, IMO.

Screen Shot 2016-04-19 at 6.49.25 PM.jpg

Screen Shot 2016-04-19 at 6.49.25 PM.jpg

I'm very jealous of this! I do think BMD needs to say something other than, essentially, that it's the lens. There is obviously an issue with a percentage of cameras and it's disturbing that they haven't acknowledged it. I'll start the RMA process tomorrow, but Benton went down that road and it left him in the same place. I guess right now I just want to know that they know it's a real problem and are doing something about it...

The open sensor test says virtually nothing about wether you'll have a magenta corner issue. BM sent me DNG's of my new replacement camera and they looked and measured great. I'm beginning to think that Morten's capped sensor noise floor test is only relevant one beyond simply seeing the issue in your shots. When I do that test, I have a gradation of noise, not a solid field like he got with other sensors.

I'm seeing this issue too, but in varying amounts.

Can I ask, Scott, did you shoot this in film mode or video mode? What was the focal length and aperture? Also did you do any post processing, bringing the image to Rec709 for example, increasing contrast and of saturation?

Im trying to see how bad mine is compared to others. Thanks!

It was shot in RAW Film mode on a 24mm Xeen Cine Prime, but I get the same result with all my lenses. Canon, Sigma, Rokinon, Zeiss. And I can't recall my aperture.

And no I didn't do anything in resolve. The DNGs were pulled directly from the card files without an increase in saturation which makes the image you see even more unbelievable to me...

I also feel really bummed that my little old GH4 does a better job of getting accurate skin tones and overall color than this camera. I really want to love the image but feel really let down so far. I sent all my DNGs as well as real world examples to Black Magic support yesterday. They just asked for more DNGs under different circumstances which I'm not thrilled about. They acknowledged the problem at least but said they are currently on a fact finding mission. That's kind of a let down cause I really didn't sign up to be a beta tester. I bought the camera to work you know?

I also feel really bummed that my little old GH4 does a better job of getting accurate skin tones and overall color than this camera. I really want to love the image but feel really let down so far. I sent all my DNGs as well as real world examples to Black Magic support yesterday. They just asked for more DNGs under different circumstances which I'm not thrilled about. They acknowledged the problem at least but said they are currently on a fact finding mission. That's kind of a let down cause I really didn't sign up to be a beta tester. I bought the camera to work you know?

Hi Scott,

yes such is a bummer. But with a new camera like this one there is always going to be a bit of beta testing.

Reason being that the camera is new and because its price vs. potential quality is unbeaten in history.
I would like to bring in an example. Sigma vs. Leica Lenses. Say a 50mm. f1.4 Prime. If you are lucky or care to do the beta testing AFTER purchase you may wind up with an image from the Sigma matching that of the Leica. If you purchase a Leica Model A in Munich, Germany and two days later a Leica Model A in Singapore they are going to match. If you do the same with a Sigma there is a 99% chance they aren't going to match. Reason is Quality Assurance. Leica is VERY strict and THAT the user pays for. Sigma is NOT and that reflects in the price. If you get a lens which you can prove is bad, take it back and get another until you are happy. Takes more time but could wind up saving you $7500. Leica Quality Assurance is done in-house. Sigma Quality Assurance is done by the users Same goes for BMD.

Imagine what a UM46 would cost if BMD design had to test EACH and EVERY one of them prior to leaving the plant.
I personally don't like getting a 'bad' item but I personally DO like the price and thus I opt for a company which cuts the price in QA and let the users do that job. If I do not like that policy I would buy a different brand but pay 2-10 as much for the item

If everyone would not mind paying $100,000 for a UM46 - no problem, BMD could build an entirely different assembly line with high precision & zero-tolerance using internal components costing 5 time as much and triple check each cam. before leaving plant. For that price the user could as per today buy 20 UM46s, return the 15 that aren't working, get reimbursed by $75,000 and shoot with perfectly working 5 cameras from 5 diff. perspectives

As when shooting any scene, it is all a matter of perspective. Any camera with a feature list as amazing as the UM46 paired with its price, should spark the perspective in the head of the buyer that at such a rate, there are going to be a fairly large number of moon-lightingings in between. But as long as the Manufacturer is willing to RMA those - and swap the buyer with a stellar unit, equilibrium is restored

Were all of BMDs current product videos shot on the UM46? Because they're magenta city lol

I watched through the video and it was prominent on the right side in most of the shots. Specifically there was a shot where one of their lights peaked in shot causing flare and the cast was pronounced. Sony had a problem like this with the F5 range which I personally experienced when used in certain lighting conditions. Apparently it was an stray filter on the built in ND wheel which was then replaced and the problem was gone.

Were all of BMDs current product videos shot on the UM46? Because they're magenta city lol

I watched through the video and it was prominent on the right side in most of the shots. Specifically there was a shot where one of their lights peaked in shot causing flare and the cast was pronounced. Sony had a problem like this with the F5 range which I personally experienced when used in certain lighting conditions. Apparently it was an stray filter on the built in ND wheel which was then replaced and the problem was gone.

Such a clean thing minus that magenta. If this is the official video, I assume it's there in very camera?

Does the new OS address this? I am waiting to know!

I finally got bit... well not really, it wasn't on a real shoot. Luckily was just fiddling around with the camera in the middle of an edit. I'm still not getting magenta, but I think I have discovered what is causing the vignette. Its the flocking that leads to the sensor... I think it may be too aggressive. Good news is, it looks user swappable, and maybe affected customers can just request a new flocking when they design one?

In this picture you can see as light enters at an off angle the flocking causes a hard shadow on the sensor.

IMG_2554.jpg (784.04 KiB) Viewed 7712 times

Here are the images that made me start to investigate

24mmVignette.jpg (754.95 KiB) Viewed 7712 times

35mmVignette.jpg (775.53 KiB) Viewed 7712 times

This happens on either side of the frame depending on where light is entering. It also occurs on the 2 lenses I tried.

I finally got bit... well not really, it wasn't on a real shoot. Luckily was just fiddling around with the camera in the middle of an edit. I'm still not getting magenta, but I think I have discovered what is causing the vignette. Its the flocking that leads to the sensor... I think it may be too aggressive. Good news is, it looks user swappable, and maybe affected customers can just request a new flocking when they design one?

In this picture you can see as light enters at an off angle the flocking causes a hard shadow on the sensor.

IMG_2554.jpg

Here are the images that made me start to investigate

24mmVignette.jpg

35mmVignette.jpg

This happens on either side of the frame depending on where light is entering. It also occurs on the 2 lenses I tried.

You know, I noticed the same thing when messing around with my camera but thought, there is no way that this would be something that was overlooked, so I must be looking at it wrong. But I noticed the same thing about the flocking.

I've shot with a lot of cameras and never see it that aggressive. I'm sure they had their reasons, but it may need a second look. The reason I relate it to that is as I move the camera in that shot to where light is not entering from a side angle it goes away completely. Problem solved-ish? At least for the people who have even sensors and only vignette?

Quick Testing with the 3.2 Update, My camera doesn't show Magenta Cast on digestion any longer Wooot Woot!

3.2Update.JPG (182.71 KiB) Viewed 7687 times

I finally got bit... well not really, it wasn't on a real shoot. Luckily was just fiddling around with the camera in the middle of an edit. I'm still not getting magenta, but I think I have discovered what is causing the vignette. Its the flocking that leads to the sensor... I think it may be too aggressive. Good news is, it looks user swappable, and maybe affected customers can just request a new flocking when they design one?

In this picture you can see as light enters at an off angle the flocking causes a hard shadow on the sensor.

IMG_2554.jpg

Here are the images that made me start to investigate

24mmVignette.jpg

35mmVignette.jpg

This happens on either side of the frame depending on where light is entering. It also occurs on the 2 lenses I tried.

...this is intresting. Maybe BMD can give an answer to that...

Good news everyone I've just been informed that there is a workaround for the magenta issues!