Low-light sensor issue?

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JorgeDeSilva

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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:31 pm

John Brawley wrote:I think for a TRUE test Jorge we need to see the same frame pointing at the same scene at the same time at the same exposure.

If you own the two cameras, it should be easy for you to do.

I'm not at home or I'd upload some, but I've done plenty of walking around in available light with this camera. You should be getting better than this.

jb


I will do it. What i see is that with prores you get way better results. I have shooted in same settings prores and raw, and the Prores image looks great. In Raw I cant recover so well with a lot of noise as always. This is intriging for me..

Learning everyday :)
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:32 pm

John Brawley wrote:
JorgeDeSilva wrote: In the BMCC you have to overexpose to feed the sensor, when you are shooting you see the overexposed images in LCD, that sucks! In red it's not the same way, even it's a raw camera too.

I


When shooting RAW, this is when you use the ISO function. Set it to ISO200 and your bright screen won't be so bright.

jb


But that's really BAD in terms of sense! The screen should show the real thing! But yeah... now I get it... After the BAD shoots... lol
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:35 pm

Felix Steinhardt wrote:I just watched Franks lowlight test again. RAW does seem to be a lot darker than prores.


Watch:
0:17 Min FS100 ISO 800
0:54 Min BMCC Proes ISO 800 ( a little darker than the FS100)
2:02 Min BMCC RAW -> Really dark. More like ISO 200 compared to the FS100.

Maybe setting the screen to ISO 400 is a better idea when recording RAW.


Yep. or even 200 just like JB told... ! (even without any sense, to a regular camera (even RED!))! Because the camera Zebras comes from the Sensor RAW directly... :/
Prores is better in lowlight... in a not controlled lighting situation as I can see.
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adamroberts

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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:36 pm

The screen can't show the "real thing" if you are shooting RAW as the RAW file contains ISO 200-1600 data. It does not know what ISO you will use in post so it takes the ISO setting in camera as a reference.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:37 pm

I'll shoot some test footage tonight with the FS100 and BMCC.
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JorgeDeSilva

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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:40 pm

adamroberts wrote:The screen can't show the "real thing" if you are shooting RAW as the RAW file contains ISO 200-1600 data. It does not know what ISO you will use in post so it takes the ISO setting in camera as a reference.


Only with this camrera....
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:41 pm

adamroberts wrote:I'll shoot some test footage tonight with the FS100 and BMCC.


Do that! Use raw and then prores. Same settings. I will do it soon with red.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:48 pm

I think I know why Prores is better. I remember a discussion at reduser about the monitor always looks good and grainfree at high ISOs and the RAW comes out grainy. It´s because the signal in preview or in prores recording is amplified before recording while RAW is amplified afterwards. Take a DSLR, take a RAW picture at ISO 1600 and then at ISO 800 and push it to 1600. It will be a lot more grainy. DSLRs amplify the signal before taking a picture (even in RAW!) while on the BMCC and RED ISO is just Metadata in RAW.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:55 pm

Felix Steinhardt wrote:I think I know why Prores is better. I remember a discussion at reduser about the monitor always looks good and grainfree at high ISOs and the RAW comes out grainy. It´s because the signal in preview or in prores recording is amplified before recording while RAW is amplified afterwards. Take a DSLR, take a RAW picture at ISO 1600 and then at ISO 800 and push it to 1600. It will be a lot more grainy. DSLRs amplify the signal before taking a picture (even in RAW!) while on the BMCC and RED ISO is just Metadata in RAW.


I know. The thing that anoys me is that at ISO800 the dng that comes out is crap... should be better.
If someone wants this camera for events... forget it! Or use prores!
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 1:57 pm

I will create my own thread with all the samples, daylight too, prores etc... It's better.

best,
JDS
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Frank Glencairn

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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 2:05 pm

This is, how good it gets (or at least, how good I'm able to make it)

The blacks of your Red and Green channel are clipped beyond repair.
Not much I can do here. I have no Idea why my lowlight shots look so much cleaner.

Just going out on a limb, though I know (or at least think) the ISO setting doesn't mean anything in raw, but an you do a test at the same location with ISO set to 800.

It's just an idea I have, maybe I#m wrong - but I never shoot in anything else than 800 ISO.

Frank
Attachments
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Test_1.1.1.jpg (978.38 KiB) Viewed 9007 times
http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/

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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 2:27 pm

Thanks Frank! Sure I can do that. :) On the weekend.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 6:54 pm

This is strange... why would ProRes be brighter than RAW?
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostThu Jan 24, 2013 11:04 pm

MikeC wrote:This is strange... why would ProRes be brighter than RAW?


Think of it as it was an audio recording. You set the level too low and it´s not loud enough. You can increase the volume when listening to the recording but it will bei noisy.

If you record with a proper level, meaning with a proper amplification it will be a loud and noise free audio signal.

Same for the BMCC. Prores amplifies the picture "live" and then it gets recorded. In RAW it´s the sensors native ISO and you have to push it in post.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 12:32 am

Felix Steinhardt wrote:
MikeC wrote:This is strange... why would ProRes be brighter than RAW?


Think of it as it was an audio recording. You set the level too low and it´s not loud enough. You can increase the volume when listening to the recording but it will bei noisy.

If you record with a proper level, meaning with a proper amplification it will be a loud and noise free audio signal.

Same for the BMCC. Prores amplifies the picture "live" and then it gets recorded. In RAW it´s the sensors native ISO and you have to push it in post.


That makes sense... and I definitely get that bringing in more light (feeding the sensor/beefing up the signal) would help exposure and lower noise.

I guess the thing that's confusing though is that if ProRes is picking up this much information, why wouldn't RAW be able to pick up that much and more? Would RAW be getting you a "fuller signal" than ProRes?

Isn't that why with RAW you have 13 stops of DR and with ProRes it's slightly less?
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 12:33 am

MikeC wrote:
Felix Steinhardt wrote:
MikeC wrote:This is strange... why would ProRes be brighter than RAW?


Think of it as it was an audio recording. You set the level too low and it´s not loud enough. You can increase the volume when listening to the recording but it will bei noisy.

If you record with a proper level, meaning with a proper amplification it will be a loud and noise free audio signal.

Same for the BMCC. Prores amplifies the picture "live" and then it gets recorded. In RAW it´s the sensors native ISO and you have to push it in post.


That makes sense... and I definitely get that bringing in more light (feeding the sensor/beefing up the signal) would help exposure and lower noise.

I guess the thing that's confusing though is that if ProRes is picking up this much information, why wouldn't RAW be able to pick up that much and more? Would RAW be getting you a "fuller signal" than ProRes?

Isn't that why with RAW you have 13 stops of DR and with ProRes it's slightly less?


Mike see my post to have the idea of the problem: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4447
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 1:36 am

I did some quick and dirty tests this evening.

I did a light meter reading before shooting and I was getting the following:
ISO1600
180º Shutter (1/50th)
Aperture f/0.9

So all shots are over 2 stops under exposed. You can see rolling noise in the BMCC files.

Frank I shot the RAW files with the camera set to 1600ASA and 800ASA. The DNG download has samples of both.

More info and the video here:
http://www.adamroberts.net/blog/blackma ... ight-test/
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 2:03 am

OOoops! So RAW ISO makes a difference!
It´s exactly 1 stop but when you develope them so they match noise is exactly the same.
In the end it doesn´t matter what ISO you set it seems.

800_k.jpg
ISO 800 pushed 2 stops
800_k.jpg (950.18 KiB) Viewed 8905 times


1660_k.jpg
ISO 1600 pushed 1 stop
1660_k.jpg (949.96 KiB) Viewed 8905 times
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 2:52 am

ISO is just metadata, definitely doesn't make a difference what ISO you shoot at as far as noise goes. You could rate the camera at a lower ISO and if you're lighting to a meter at the same rating, achieve proper exposure there and technically you would be "overexposing", that would reduce noise due to the fact that you're feeding the camera more light.

For a completely dark from, two stops under, I would say those files look great. Adam. I'm sure you could get close to the FS100's in camera Noise Reduction with Neat Video on the RAW material.

Edit: And boy I really cannot wait to get some SLR 0.95's on the camera. Voigts will have to do at first.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 3:05 am

Thanks for posting your tests and for your thoughts guys! This is totally helpful!
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 3:56 am

This is just Lightroom noise reduction. Quick adjustments. I believe NeatVideo would totally rip the noise out, especially with a grey card.

Definitely ends up being softer (as expected), but again I'm sure that neat video would do a lot better.

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http://www.campcomet.com/stills/Stills/1600.jpg
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 8:33 am

Kohli I agree. I was very happy with the results. At over 2 stops under I was expecting it to be worse. NeatVideo or even the Resolve noise reduction would be a huge help. I could not run Resolves noise reduction as I was on a MacBook Pro with an ATI card.

I think the NEX5 shots in the first samples in this thread were not at the same settings. Probably a different shutter speed of on Auto ISO.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 8:37 am

Adam, what light source (on the face) was that? LED, sodium-vapor?
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 8:42 am

adamroberts wrote:Kohli I agree. I was very happy with the results. At over 2 stops under I was expecting it to be worse. NeatVideo or even the Resolve noise reduction would be a huge help. I could not run Resolves noise reduction as I was on a MacBook Pro with an ATI card.

I think the NEX5 shots in the first samples in this thread were not at the same settings. Probably a different shutter speed of on Auto ISO.


I have to repeat agin the settings of the nex??? Full Manual! ISO 1600, Shutter 1/50 aperture at f/3.5! How is so difficult to believe that in real lowlight bmc is not the camera???

Dont forget you have lighting on the face...! Try to do the same with again NO lighting! My test is a NO LIGHTING test...

I have bought yesterday the Neat Video Pro plugin. Is making a HUGE difference. Let's wait for Paris... And Again... To use this camera in events, night shows, etc... Again... Prores is the Deal...
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 9:14 am

JorgeDeSilva wrote:[
Dont forget you have lighting on the face...! Try to do the same with again NO lighting! My test is a NO LIGHTING test...


...and than try that with film ;)
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 9:21 am

Frank Glencairn wrote:Adam, what light source (on the face) was that? LED, sodium-vapor?


The light source was an exterior light in the garden. It was running an energy efficient bulb. Fluorescent.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 9:24 am

JorgeDeSilva wrote:I have to repeat agin the settings of the nex??? Full Manual! ISO 1600, Shutter 1/50 aperture at f/3.5! How is so difficult to believe that in real lowlight bmc is not the camera???


I'm not arguing with you. It's just strange the your NEX footage looks 2 stops brighter than your BMCC footage yet that is not the case with my test footage.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 9:24 am

Yeah it looked like CFL, surprisingly easy to rip the green out, though. Could've gone further with it.

Agreed, Adam, for two stops underexposed that's darn good. It also reminds me that the FS100 is quite a powerful little lowlight tool, though. Retaining a fair amount of detail with a low noise floor like that, 8-bit or not, is great.

=P Too bad the color can't hold up, however.


adamroberts wrote:
JorgeDeSilva wrote:I have to repeat agin the settings of the nex??? Full Manual! ISO 1600, Shutter 1/50 aperture at f/3.5! How is so difficult to believe that in real lowlight bmc is not the camera???


I'm not arguing with you. It's just strange the your NEX footage looks 2 stops brighter than your BMCC footage yet that is not the case with my test footage.


Indeed, the 1600's match here in your tests, pretty much what I would expect.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 9:41 am

I hope it's not a problem with this camera... becaause we already have seen a couple of problems in the quality control... I will make side by side test too next time.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 2:06 pm

Hmm, indeed. Adams FS100 is exactly the same brightness as the BMCC RAW.
I´ll do the same test with my FS700 and the BMCC when I get it, hopefully in the next 2 weeks...
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 2:09 pm

Felix Steinhardt wrote:Hmm, indeed. Adams FS100 is exactly the same brightness as the BMCC RAW.
I´ll do the same test with my FS700 and the BMCC when I get it, hopefully in the next 2 weeks...


If you do it, Do with a some lighting to a face.. and then turning off and on... to see the differences.. no cheating :P
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 2:49 pm

JorgeDeSilva wrote:
Felix Steinhardt wrote:Hmm, indeed. Adams FS100 is exactly the same brightness as the BMCC RAW.
I´ll do the same test with my FS700 and the BMCC when I get it, hopefully in the next 2 weeks...


If you do it, Do with a some lighting to a face.. and then turning off and on... to see the differences.. no cheating :P


You had light in you scenes too. There are street lights. ;)

I had not light pointed at the face. It was a light on the wall a few meters away. Much like a street light.

My light meter readings were take where the face is.
ISO1600, 1/50th, f/0.9
:)
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 3:05 pm

adamroberts wrote:
JorgeDeSilva wrote:
Felix Steinhardt wrote:Hmm, indeed. Adams FS100 is exactly the same brightness as the BMCC RAW.
I´ll do the same test with my FS700 and the BMCC when I get it, hopefully in the next 2 weeks...


If you do it, Do with a some lighting to a face.. and then turning off and on... to see the differences.. no cheating :P


You had light in you scenes too. There are street lights. ;)

I had not light pointed at the face. It was a light on the wall a few meters away. Much like a street light.

My light meter readings were take where the face is.
ISO1600, 1/50th, f/0.9
:)


You see what I get with the same settings... :/ I have less light in my scene (and that's the idea)... Ok I need to reapet the tests... maybe I really have a prob with that sensor...
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 3:39 pm

Have you got a light meter? If you do take a light meter reading of the scene.

In my case I took and incident reading infront of the face with a Sekonic L-758D DigitalMaster.

This way I knew how under exposed I was.

My light meter reading was:
ISO1600, 1/50th, f/0.9

My cameras were set you
ISO1600, 1/50th, f/2
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 4:26 pm

adamroberts wrote:Have you got a light meter? If you do take a light meter reading of the scene.

In my case I took and incident reading infront of the face with a Sekonic L-758D DigitalMaster.

This way I knew how under exposed I was.

My light meter reading was:
ISO1600, 1/50th, f/0.9

My cameras were set you
ISO1600, 1/50th, f/2


Nop. I use my nex5n as my base for settings. I'm already wainting the shipping of my Sekonic L308DC.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 10:14 pm

Kholi wrote:I'm sure that neat video would do a lot better.

To give you an idea, this is an export from Resolve as DPX, then Neat Video with default settings applied in Premiere, output straight into JPG. The profile generated in Neat Video was 79% which is generally considered a 'good' profile. I put the DNG into BMDFilm in resolve and pushed it 2 stops (2.0 plus some minor adjustments):

With Neat Video:
Image

Link: http://f.cl.ly/items/3J0P2u1l2F3L210K1u ... o_Test.jpg

Without Neat Video (exported from Premiere with Neat Video disabled):
Image

Link: http://f.cl.ly/items/3W1L182M082O1T2Y2X ... tVideo.jpg

I obviously didn't push the exposure as much as yours though.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Jan 25, 2013 10:22 pm

If you had 3 dngs instead of one you could make a much much better noise reduction with neat video -> temporal filtration

My Luma and Chroma sliders in Neat video are always at 0 %. Temporal NR is far enough.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 1:40 am

Yeah, like i said it was just to give an idea as i used default settings as well for this which i never do. :)
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 9:04 am

If I get a moment I'll upload a sequence of DNGs for you to play with.
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostSat Jan 26, 2013 7:23 pm

Cheers, i already own Neat Video Pro but might be good for others to see and compare Temporal NR vs luma/chroma etc so i'll run them through if you get a chance. :)
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 11:59 am

Christian Schmeer wrote:Another thing: Every once in a while (very rarely though), there is a single frame, which will have some bright dots in it. What could this be? I've noticed this in John Brawley's and Philip Bloom's footage as well, but I can't remember in which videos. I am guessing since it only ever happens to one single frame, it's firmware fixable.

Image
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/3821/jpgbr.jpg


I've seen the same in a dozen recording of a 3h stage show.
On TWO Blackmagic Pocket cameras.
Very prominent in dark scenes. less prominent but visible in brighter scenes, nearly invisible in bright scenes but still present.
Pettern is perfectly fixed over 3h and dozens of batteries.
(Of cause each camera has it's own pattern)

Strangely I tried to reproduce it on one of these cameras later and I can't (up to now)
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Re: Low-light sensor issue?

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 6:34 pm

Here is a still from my BMPC 4K of downtown Dallas. Neat was used.

Image
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