Plea to BMD

To Grant Petty, Dan May and others,

First off, I would like to say that I am no troll, although I have been called an ogre once or twice before, but there is one more feature "missing" (which I'll get to shortly).

In mid February I had to cancel my order for the BMCC, not once in any forums anywhere, have I complained about shipping dates as I understand in the real world, things happen. I respect you for being so forthcoming about shipping dates and sensor defects where other companies are usually surreptitious regarding issues. Unfortunately, I'm just not at a point in my life where I have the luxury of having over $4,000 tied up as I wait for a product to ship. I simply canceled and purchased more equipment for my current kit, with the plan of purchasing the BMCC later once they were readily available.

Secondly, I would like to reiterate what I'm sure you already know, and what many others have said countless times; that you are really setting the precedent by destroying the barrier between quality imagery and price when it comes to filmmaking. These are very exciting times for anyone that already is, or plans to be a filmmaker, especially students, the low budget/independent filmmaker and start-up production companies.

I would also like to commend you on your ability to not only hear request but to acknowledge them by responding so quickly and producing new products that many have asked for. Not to mention in such a short time and at a ridiculous price point for you're offering!

Now having said that, like many others, I would like STRESS one additional feature... HFR!!! This is the one feature that your cameras are missing!

I understand the limitations with the original BMCC; however, with the BMPC4K, I am hoping this is something that can be done, be it as a burst or via external recorder, this is something that MUST be done! I heard a glimmer of hope from one of the NAB interviews where it was stated that it may be possible via firmware update at a later date, which would be completely acceptable. I'm sure you're considering all possible configurations: 120fps @ 4k in bursts, 60fps only @ 4k with 120fps & 60fps @ 1080p, either way "possible," just make it happen!

Obviously I understand it's not that simple but as you've been GREAT at delivering consumer needs for budget productions thus far, PLEASE FIND A WAY!

Best,

Hundo

To Grant Petty, Dan May and others,

First off, I would like to say that I am no troll, although I have been called an ogre once or twice before, but there is one more feature "missing" (which I'll get to shortly).

In mid February I had to cancel my order for the BMCC, not once in any forums anywhere, have I complained about shipping dates as I understand in the real world, things happen. I respect you for being so forthcoming about shipping dates and sensor defects where other companies are usually surreptitious regarding issues. Unfortunately, I'm just not at a point in my life where I have the luxury of having over $4,000 tied up as I wait for a product to ship. I simply canceled and purchased more equipment for my current kit, with the plan of purchasing the BMCC later once they were readily available.

Secondly, I would like to reiterate what I'm sure you already know, and what many others have said countless times; that you are really setting the precedent by destroying the barrier between quality imagery and price when it comes to filmmaking. These are very exciting times for anyone that already is, or plans to be a filmmaker, especially students, the low budget/independent filmmaker and start-up production companies.

I would also like to commend you on your ability to not only hear request but to acknowledge them by responding so quickly and producing new products that many have asked for. Not to mention in such a short time and at a ridiculous price point for you're offering!

Now having said that, like many others, I would like STRESS one additional feature... HFR!!! This is the one feature that your cameras are missing!

I understand the limitations with the original BMCC; however, with the BMPC4K, I am hoping this is something that can be done, be it as a burst or via external recorder, this is something that MUST be done! I heard a glimmer of hope from one of the NAB interviews where it was stated that it may be possible via firmware update at a later date, which would be completely acceptable. I'm sure you're considering all possible configurations: 120fps @ 4k in bursts, 60fps only @ 4k with 120fps & 60fps @ 1080p, either way "possible," just make it happen!

Obviously I understand it's not that simple but as you've been GREAT at delivering consumer needs for budget productions thus far, PLEASE FIND A WAY!

Best,

Hundo

not 1 camera is perfect. HFR requires a lot to implement correctly, let alone at the quality BMD are aiming for.
HFR requires very fast sensor reading, image processing, and data transfer. there are SSD's that cant even write fast enough for 2.5K RAW right now. to be able to achieve what BMD seems to be going towards they would have to wait until there are affordable non proprietary ways of moving large amounts of data. 120fps @ 4K raw would be 5 times the data rate as 4K @ 24p. Even at ProRes 422 HQ @ 120fps is around 440 MBps, not megabits, mega bytes. The other side of this argument is a hardware based one. If the hardware is not there to support it, it won't happen.

Besides HFR is a very niche thing, if you want to do a shot or two, rent a phantom for a day, or an epic, or an FS700.

not 1 camera is perfect. HFR requires a lot to implement correctly, let alone at the quality BMD are aiming for.
HFR requires very fast sensor reading, image processing, and data transfer. there are SSD's that cant even write fast enough for 2.5K RAW right now. to be able to achieve what BMD seems to be going towards they would have to wait until there are affordable non proprietary ways of moving large amounts of data. 120fps @ 4K raw would be 5 times the data rate as 4K @ 24p. Even at ProRes 422 HQ @ 120fps is around 440 MBps, not megabits, mega bytes. The other side of this argument is a hardware based one. If the hardware is not there to support it, it won't happen.

Besides HFR is a very niche thing, if you want to do a shot or two, rent a phantom for a day, or an epic, or an FS700.

What is perfect? And although I partially agree with what you are saying "perfection," be it a camera, a color or a day of the month, is subjective. It'd be hard to argue that the perfect camera doesn't already exist for some, try arguing with those on REDUSER, and if I had in excess of $40,000 for a camera, I'd probably become a Red fanboy and would argue as well.

Now I'm not entirely naive, I did say that I 'obviously understand that its not that simple.' I clearly dismissed the BMCC, not because I don't want it, because from my understanding it's not possible based on the sensor and current hardware already in the camera. Aside from what you listed, I know there are also cooling issues with HFR, so I get the limitations on a very small scale. This post was based on the speculation that the sensor is from CMOSIS, which if correct, has the capability built in, and the fact that a rep (can't remember who it was) at NAB said it may be possible at a later date.

Again I'm not trolling and no, I don't have a tun of videos posted online to validate my expertise; however, I reject the notion that HFR is strictly a "niche thing!" There are few music videos, commercials and even feature length films, without slow motion, even if it is a shot or two. I don't want it to simply film water, milk or juice flying, I think we all had enough of that with the FS700. And that's not to say if BMD did implement it, we wouldn't see more "test" with the BMPC4K (which of course we would at this price) but there is often a very practical use for HFR to help convey a story.

Besides, I'm just being hopeful, but hey, if all else fails, I'll take heed to your suggestion, appreciate it!

What is perfect? And although I partially agree with what you are saying "perfection," be it a camera, a color or a day of the month, is subjective. It'd be hard to argue that the perfect camera doesn't already exist for some, try arguing with those on REDUSER, and if I had in excess of $40,000 for a camera, I'd probably become a Red fanboy and would argue as well.

Now I'm not entirely naive, I did say that I 'obviously understand that its not that simple.' I clearly dismissed the BMCC, not because I don't want it, because from my understanding it's not possible based on the sensor and current hardware already in the camera. Aside from what you listed, I know there are also cooling issues with HFR, so I get the limitations on a very small scale. This post was based on the speculation that the sensor is from CMOSIS, which if correct, has the capability built in, and the fact that a rep (can't remember who it was) at NAB said it may be possible at a later date.

Again I'm not trolling and no, I don't have a tun of videos posted online to validate my expertise; however, I reject the notion that HFR is strictly a "niche thing!" There are few music videos, commercials and even feature length films, without slow motion, even if it is a shot or two. I don't want it to simply film water, milk or juice flying, I think we all had enough of that with the FS700. And that's not to say if BMD did implement it, we wouldn't see more "test" with the BMPC4K (which of course we would at this price) but there is often a very practical use for HFR to help convey a story.

Besides, I'm just being hopeful, but hey, if all else fails, I'll take heed to your suggestion, appreciate it!

perfect as in not 1 camera is technically better in every single possible way to all other cameras.

CMOSIS sensor or not, sensors by them selves don't do anything besides reflect and absorb light. the sensor may be capable of doing far greater things, but it can only do that if its hooked up to the right stuff and thats if those extra capabilities are even present. A lot of times they'll manufacture chips not to max specs in order to save money, which saves you (the consumer) money. I do recall that someone said something about possible higher frame rates, but then there's also the cooling side of things. and besides JB has already talked about higher frame rates on the current cameras, which is where some of my points stem from.

HFR is used a lot yes, but you are not going to be filming everything in slow-mo to tell a story. Niche might be the wrong word to use but its still a very specialized shot that deserves specialized equipment. I mean you could use it all the time but if you really wanted to do slo-mo all the time I would think it would be better to invest in something thats proven to do quality slo-mo.

Yes I believe quality slow mo is still over priced, but theres a legitimate reason for that price. Give it a couple or a few years. And I also know how great slow-mo is as an artistic storytelling device. But the fact is there's stuff out there now, if you want slow mo use that stuff have fun. If you want beautiful looking images in a post friendly format on the cheap grab yourself a BMCC. Don't work yourself up too much pleading for this cost friendly tool to be a cost friendly swiss army knife. Take your passion, apply it creatively and i'm sure you'll see you can produce amazing things with whatever you use.

Not sure what part of the world you're in but many (most?) reputable resellers do not require full pre-payment. Not sure why you'd pre-pay in full when many others require only a refundable deposit?

That's not really up to Blackmagic and more down to the trading practises of each reseller (which we've seen can vary greatly).

You guys are sounding too technical...what the heck is HFR? lol

You guys are sounding too technical...what the heck is HFR? lol

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=HFR+meaning

Thanks! High frequency Google search?

Not sure what part of the world you're in but many (most?) reputable resellers do not require full pre-payment. Not sure why you'd pre-pay in full when many others require only a refundable deposit?

That's not really up to Blackmagic and more down to the trading practises of each reseller (which we've seen can vary greatly).

I agree with Jesus

Many angry posts here that should be directed at your Local Vendor/Supplier/Reseller, BMD is the manufacturer but is not responsible for how the reseller does business,The local Reseller may or may not be on BMD list of Authorized Resellers (http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/resellers/)
In any case you should do your own research and stop relying solely on your local Reseller,
I started a forum thread here on BMCC "Adorama BMCC PreOrder status" that has lead to more people receiving the BMC Camera sooner than any other online retailer or local supplier
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4500
Shipping a BMCC camera from date ordered to Switzerland in record time as far as I know,

And Yet I have never had Helen Oster or Adorama say thank you for your support,
But hey I'm not complaining that My simple post may have made them more money than any "Ad saturated Blogger" could have with a simple mention.

My point is I chose Adorama for the simple fact they have never ever caused me any grief,
Others have.. but I wont mention names since I learned my lesson and they will never see my money again anyway.

perfect as in not 1 camera is technically better in every single possible way to all other cameras.

CMOSIS sensor or not, sensors by them selves don't do anything besides reflect and absorb light. the sensor may be capable of doing far greater things, but it can only do that if its hooked up to the right stuff and thats if those extra capabilities are even present. A lot of times they'll manufacture chips not to max specs in order to save money, which saves you (the consumer) money. I do recall that someone said something about possible higher frame rates, but then there's also the cooling side of things. and besides JB has already talked about higher frame rates on the current cameras, which is where some of my points stem from.

HFR is used a lot yes, but you are not going to be filming everything in slow-mo to tell a story. Niche might be the wrong word to use but its still a very specialized shot that deserves specialized equipment. I mean you could use it all the time but if you really wanted to do slo-mo all the time I would think it would be better to invest in something thats proven to do quality slo-mo.

Yes I believe quality slow mo is still over priced, but theres a legitimate reason for that price. Give it a couple or a few years. And I also know how great slow-mo is as an artistic storytelling device. But the fact is there's stuff out there now, if you want slow mo use that stuff have fun. If you want beautiful looking images in a post friendly format on the cheap grab yourself a BMCC. Don't work yourself up too much pleading for this cost friendly tool to be a cost friendly swiss army knife. Take your passion, apply it creatively and i'm sure you'll see you can produce amazing things with whatever you use.

You're right, appreciate it...

BMD is saving high frame rates for another camera, it's obvious.

Pocket for enthousiasts and break boxes
the cinema camera specially made for shorts/commercials/indy
Production camera for production work, sports, corporates and also other work

I think there is going be a NAB2014 HFR BMD camera

... I think there is going be a NAB2014 HFR BMD camera

I agree, either by 2014 or 2015, when the technology is readily available within the price range BMD probably wants to "work in".

I don't think BMD wants to sell cameras that sell for more than about $5K or so.

Or, let me put it this way: If BMD announces a >$5K camera full of amazing (e.g.: equivalent to "$10K - $75K cam") features*, Japan will probably declare war on Australia, with Germany on Japan's side, and I don't think anyone wants that to happen -- again.

*EDIT: Oh, wait, BMD has kinda already done that. Incoming!


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i thought this was a plea to blackmagic, not to people that don't work for bm and have nothing to do.

... I think there is going be a NAB2014 HFR BMD camera

I agree, either by 2014 or 2015, when the technology is readily available within the price range BMD probably wants to "work in".

I don't think BMD wants to sell cameras that sell for more than about $5K or so.

Or, let me put it this way: If BMD announces a >$5K camera full of amazing (e.g.: equivalent to "$10K - $75K cam") features*, Japan will probably declare war on Australia, with Germany on Japan's side, and I don't think anyone wants that to happen -- again.

*EDIT: Oh, wait, BMD has kinda already done that. Incoming!


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What camera war are we in now? 3rd? there was the digital revolution, the HDSLR uprising, and now the Consumers rebellion?

Anyways yes thats a pretty good summary, and a nice WWII reference. Kudos.

Hi all,im stuart nice to meet you. i came to this forum to sniff around about any information on BMCC 2.5k and High Frame Rates.
Ive watched the NAB 2013 videos and a rep mentioned OVER HEATING with HFR and how it would require a NEW camera! I think this is totally WRONG, as all of us know Canon DSLR's get round the 'Over heating' CPU by reducing the frame size from 1080p down to 720p thus leaving enough bandwidth for frame rate increase to 50/60fps. I really want a BMCC 2.5k and i also shoot a lot of slowMo with my Rock Solid 7D.
But no HFR is holding me back and looking around for another RAW $3000 camera. What i dont understand is the DIGITAL BOLEX 2k RAW camera CAN shoot 720p RAW and this is built by a INDY company that raised the cash through donations and are NOT a big Broadcast Tech company like BMD. Ive almost saved my £2300 to buy a RAW camera and the DIGITAL BOLEX 2k is giving me more creative options. 720p 50fps in ProRes cant be that difficult to do in a firmware update.....C'mon

I like HFR

My definition of HFR: more than 60fps at 2K...

It's funny, how everybody keeps speculating on how simple it is to do HFR and how others can do it, so why not BMD, ...

I think at this point in time, given all the statements from (BMD) people, it is safe to say:
- The currently shipping cameras can't do HFR and never will
- The soon to ship cameras can't do HFR but might in some form in the future (or not)
- There might be a proper HFR camera from BMD somewhere down the road

Long story short, there really is no point in telling the people on this forum, that HFR really is simple and BMD should do it, because XYZ can do it.

I'm sure, nobody would mind if BMD makes a BMCC (2.5k or 4k) that does HFR at full resolution for 4k, but that is going to be a NEW camera, not one of the existing models.

BTW: I'm not aware of any camera currently shipping that can do HFR at full HD below ~10K.

Cheers

Remo

PS: For me, 720p60 is not HFR...

Hi , the NEX-FS700 can do 240fps at 1920x1080 @ £6570 with NO macroblocking. Philip Bloom done a great review and as always tested every inch of the camera.
There is a big chunk of the market that the BMCC 2.5k is going to loose out on as HFR are another creative option to the independant /Student or established film maker. At the BVE Expo show London HFR was the 2nd or the 1st questioned asked at the BM stand, and watching the NAB 2013 videos again the masses are asking for HFR on a already beautiful camera.
Im assuming its NOTthat hard to implement HFR as much smaller independant companies are adding this feature to their RAW cameras like the Digital Bolex and KineFINITY Mini and a Broadcast leading company like BM who have resources and know how are saying they are NOT adding this feature? I noticed many people at the trade show scratching their heads and saying why? And im one of those people that cant afford to buy 2 cameras per year.
I realy want a BMCC 2.5k but i also want HFR, if there no possible firmware update for this then like many 100's of 1000's of film makers around the world i will have to look at other brands for my next camera, its a shame because BM do make top quality products
ProRes 720p / 60fps Pleeeeaaasssee!

the NEX-FS700 can do 240fps at 1920x1080 @ £6570

Well, that IS 10k$ . And it only records bursts of HFR, not constant HFR. It also compresses the footage and has much less color resolution...

Im assuming its NOTthat hard to implement HFR as much smaller independant companies are adding this feature to their RAW cameras like the Digital Bolex and KineFINITY Mini

Both are on preorder and not really available yet, so there is no telling what they ultimately deliver. According to the data sheet, both only do 1080p30, so is definitely not HFR... I don't know where you get the idea from that they do HFR... 720p60 is not HFR, it's a lame compromise...

I'd rather wait for a BMD camera that does it like the FS700 (but better)...

the NEX-FS700 can do 240fps at 1920x1080 @ £6570

Well, that IS 10k$ . And it only records bursts of HFR, not constant HFR. It also compresses the footage and has much less color resolution...

except a firmware update and convergent media recorder will allow hfr in 16 bit 4k raw (burst mode)
Up to 45 min at 240 fps @ 2k raw

Do your homework

I'd rather wait for a BMD camera that does it like the FS700 (but better)...

Youre going to be waiting a long time...

the NEX-FS700 can do 240fps at 1920x1080 @ £6570

Well, that IS 10k$ . And it only records bursts of HFR, not constant HFR. It also compresses the footage and has much less color resolution...

except a firmware update and convergent media recorder will allow hfr in 16 bit 4k raw (burst mode)
Up to 45 min at 240 fps @ 2k raw

Do your homework

First of all, that is only announced and not yet available. Also, now we're talking about a 15k$+ solution...

My original statement still stands, there is no current solution (as in available NOW) I'm aware of, that does continuous HFR for less than $10k or so... (and $10K is probably optimistic at that). So saying that other can easily do it is just plain wrong and misleading.

I'm sure there will be more HFR options soonish, but not in the BMCC

fs-700 $7,499 list price new.
Oddessy Q7 announced list price $2,295

That equals $9,794... and thats <$10k the last time I checked.

Sure the actual codec purchase or rental for the Q7 will be additional, but I dont see where you are getting $15k+

Exaggerating a little to make your point?

I agree with you that they are "announced", but the fs-700 was built, marketed and sold as having the capability to to hfr, 4k, etc from the beginning with a future external recorder...so here we are.

fs-700 $7,499 list price new.
Oddessy Q7 announced list price $2,295

That equals $9,794... and thats <$10k the last time I checked.

Sure the actual codec purchase or rental for the Q7 will be additional, but I dont see where you are getting $15k+

Well, the recording option and the proprietary SSD media are going to push that well beyond $10K, I'm sure (for HFR you need to stream to two SSDs in parallel, it seems). According to CD, the price is somewhere higher than normal SSDs and lower than the Gemini-SSDs... we'll know more in May, I guess...

But to get back to the original poster... it is neither simple nor cheap to add an HFR option to a camera and the current $3k and $4k cameras from BMD seem to be unable to do it and most likely never will.

If you don't like that answer, get an FS700, it seems to be the cheapest option on the market and should be able to do true HFR some when in Q3 at a pricepoint around $10k . Or hope that another company will surprise us with something else...

In terms of HFR, totally unrelated, but there was one a casio camera which shot 1000FPS...

IN truth; when you need HFR, which isn't too often really, you can easily and cheaply rent that camera for that day. Granted, it would be amazing to have an HFR BM. However, in my years of work, I've only done off speed a handful of times, and only really once was it on a whim on set with a director (on an SR3).
These BMs certainly cannot handle it, not only the data through put, but also the build up of heat.

I COMPLETELY AGREE AND WITH THIS PLEA!!!!

GUYS, this is the deal. The BMCC, BMPC, and BMPCC are all AMAZING cameras already. I love everything about them they are almost perfect except for this ONE thing..just ONE thing..and that is HIGH FRAMERATE...even just 48fps would be fine! 60p would be great! 120p is just pushing it..Id pay for a new camera model for that. But 48fps or 60p is doable. The 500$ Nex 5N with a body thinner and smaller than the BMPCC and has a much larger sensor (apsc vs s16) can do 60p just fine..it does overheat but on a couple of solid 15-20 mins already... BUT IT CAN DO IT! And this is not uncompressed format which needs MINIMAL processing..the internal miniscule consumer grade processor have to scan the huge sensor, compress from 16megapixel to 1080p, compress color, compress to avchd and write to even class 4 SD cards no problems! This from a 500$ SONY consumer camera! And its TINY compared to the body of the original BMCC and upcoming BMPC4K...IT HAS NO FAN and has a CONSUMER processor in it. Simple as that...Its possible! It is being done. Blackmagic knows it. They are an amazing tech company and I know they should be able to do it. But why not? Licensing issues? A pact with the big boys? Even their Shuttle cant do 60p Prores...I dont know what's limiting them...its most likely this is just a policy issue.

Come on BMD..even just 1080p Prores LT of 48P woiuld be ENOUGH! Just that minimum....It would already be ok! Please consider giving it...your cameras are already awesome! Break this HFR wall and no one can touch you already!

Hey guys,
First post here. I have been reading these forums for quite a while now, and will be purchasing a Black Magic Cinema Camera (OG) at the end of next month. To the individuals pleading for higher frame rates in this thread, I would strongly recommend you do a youtube search for, "Canon DSLR and TWIXTOR". The results are quite frankly amazing. Granted there are work arounds needed etc. but essentially my point is this: If you are a part of this community you are most likely excited that a camera sub 4k has hit the market with such quality, and specifications of cameras ten fold the price tag. The inherent nature of an indie film maker excited about a sub 4k camera is one of innovation, and experimentation. If you are looking for higher frame rates, then we must as intelligent film makers realize the basics that would need to go into implementing HFR even as an added bonus to this camera. that mindset would let us realize the potential for added price in the product (I wager that it would make the BMCC far more than affordable for most of us here). Therefore I encourage all of us to use, and love the BMCC's for what they were intended for. Creative, innovative, "work-around mindset" oriented film makers on a budget. To echo a lot of sentiments on this thread, if you are looking for HFR rent an FS700! A lot of slow motion sequences in music videos are shot on DSLR's at 60fps anyway!! Start with the question how integral is 240+fps to my story, and rent/buy accordingly. No film should ever be shot on one format! I know we all love and appreciate this camera for what it is bringing to the market. It just seems it hasn't even gotten off the ground, and we are pleading for different / more options. Just my 2 cents

Everyone just wants what isn't available.