Suggestion for 24fps shooting

I need your experience to evaluate this shoot.



Micro Cinema Camera + Metabones Speedbooster EF + Sigma 17-50 f2.8 OS

The shoot settings are:
angle shutter 180°
frame rate 24
ISO 800

I would like to know why the look of this shoot appear so nervous during the panning. I applied the 180 degree rule to realize a standard motion blur. Can i do somethings to improve the settings to obtain a panning more sharpen ? All my handle shooting has this look.

Thank you very much

It might be that you're still panning too fast (if you want a smooth pan) or too slow (if you want lots of motion blur).

BTW: If you're in Europe and are using 24p, 180° is wrong due to 50hz. You'd need 172.8° (180°), 259.2° or 345,6° (360°) to make sure it's not the light flickering.

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BTW: If you're in Europe and are using 24p, 180° is wrong due to 50hz. You'd need 172.8° (180°), 259.2° or 345,6° (360°) to make sure it's not the light flickering.

For cameras having only shutter speed, not angle, what should be the shutter speeds for shooting 24p and 25p in Europe?

It might be that you're still panning too fast (if you want a smooth pan) or too slow (if you want lots of motion blur).

BTW: If you're in Europe and are using 24p, 180° is wrong due to 50hz. You'd need 172.8° (180°), 259.2° or 345,6° (360°) to make sure it's not the light flickering.

Thank you Tim,

I don't speak about light flickering...i see all camera movement like a step by step...like a frame by frame...i see this look in EVF and in Resolve preview monitor...maybe it isn't so evident in vimeo clip.

I have watched this on an iPad Pro which has an adaptive display (which sets itself to whatever framerate the video has) - the movement is ok and not unusual for 24fps - which has a low temporal resolution.
On a 60Hz computer screen it looks juddering - that is because 60 / 24 does not give you a division without a remainder. So the lower temporal resolution gets even worse because the monitor has to interpolate frames out of sync.

And the larger the screen the more prominent this gets.

This video shows the problem quite well:

Thank you so much Robert...a great video resource.

That "nervous" panning - the juddering motion - looks like it could be down to the Optical Stabilisation (OS) of your Sigma lens. Try with the stabilisation turned off if possible, or using another lens, and see if the motion is the same.

For cameras having only shutter speed, not angle, what should be the shutter speeds for shooting 24p and 25p in Europe?

For 24p, I'm not so sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can just use 1/25 or 1/50 (depending on what you want for your look to be), just like with 25p, since Angle and Speed differ in how you use them.

On a 60Hz computer screen it looks juddering - that is because 60 / 24 does not give you a division without a remainder.

Stupid question, but shouldn't 60hz be OK with 24p (24+24+12)?

That "nervous" panning - the juddering motion - looks like it could be down to the Optical Stabilisation (OS) of your Sigma lens. Try with the stabilisation turned off if possible, or using another lens, and see if the motion is the same.

I agree with this as another potential contributing factor, but note that the OP said this was a hand-held shot so I think you'd want some sort of stabilization unless you are very adept at smooth, steady handheld shooting. If you're shooting on a tripod you'd definitely want to turn off the lens stabilization, as it can lead to a stop-and-go effect when starting your pan (I think the OS detects the initial movement and controls it but then it "catches up" after you've panned a bit more); I've seen this in my own footage when I forgot to turn off stabilization in the lens when panning on a tripod.

I will try without lens stabilization but in the past i saw improvement in EVF when the shutter angle is less than 180 degree...handheld shooting is better.

On a 60Hz computer screen it looks juddering - that is because 60 / 24 does not give you a division without a remainder.

Stupid question, but shouldn't 60hz be OK with 24p (24+24+12)?

No, because it does not work that way.
Your 60 Hz screen constantly draws a frame every 16.667 ms
If you play a 30fps clip every frame gets shown for 2x 16.667 ms or 33.333 ms per frame.
But if you play a 24 fps clip every frame needs to get shown for 41.667 ms
So either the player re-invents frames out of two consecutive frames or it adjusts the length a frame is shown adaptively like
Frame 1: 49.999 ms
Frame 2: 33.333 ms
Frame 3: 49.999 ms
Frame 4: 33.333 ms
Frame 5: 49.999 ms

That this won't play smoothly should be obvious.

You would need a 120 Hz screen and graphic mode set to 120Hz to get smooth motion, because then each frame could be displayed for 5x 8.333 ms = 41.667 ms

I watched the video AFTER I posted the question, that already answered a lot (but couldn't delete the post ). The frame-timing is the perfect answer for me though. Thanks!

I will try without lens stabilization but in the past i saw improvement in EVF when the shutter angle is less than 180 degree...handheld shooting is better.

You could try 360° / 345,6° degrees, but then you'll have a lot of motion blur.

…
BTW: If you're in Europe and are using 24p, 180° is wrong due to 50hz. You'd need 172.8° (180°), 259.2° or 345,6° (360°) to make sure it's not the light flickering.

For cameras having only shutter speed, not angle, what should be the shutter speeds for shooting 24p and 25p in Europe?

The “normal motion” cine shutter speed which 180-degree cine shutter gives, is 2X the frame Rate, or 1/48th Sec for 24fps, 1/50th for 25fps. You can use a slower speed also, if you wanted more motion blur, or a faster speed to reduce blur in a fast moving subject.
Cheers

If you'd like to compare, watch "Collateral" again. Michael Mann wanted to shoot his exteriors available light, and the cameras of the time were still struggling with it. So he shot his exteriors at 360 degrees, while the studio interiors were conventional 180 degrees.

You can compare motion blur very well in the chase scene before the taxi driver (Jamie Foxx) throws the hitman's (Tom Cruise) laptop onto the highway.

I know the 180 degree rule and "Collateral" is a great example of this explanation like as some shoots of "Saving private ryan"...maybe, what i see is called "telecine judder" and in the web there are more posts to explain this effect...why the 24p movie playes on my monitor pc so smooth ? Is it optimized for 60hz ? Also on the smartphone it appears very smooth. Can i do something to improve the viewfinder preview ?

Thank you to all for this discussion...it isn't never to late to learn.

I know the 180 degree rule and "Collateral" is a great example of this explanation like as some shoots of "Saving private ryan"...maybe, what i see is called "telecine judder" and in the web there are more posts to explain this effect...why the 24p movie playes on my monitor pc so smooth ? Is it optimized for 60hz ? Also on the smartphone it appears very smooth. Can i do something to improve the viewfinder preview ?

Thank you to all for this discussion...it isn't never to late to learn.

The smaller the screen, the less pronounced the effect is. If you skip frame by frame through a 24p clip, you will see that it looks like continuous motion (because your brain predicts where motion will go) and moving objects are where you would expect them to be. But as soon as you hit play it will change to juddering again, because of the uneven timing of the frames moving objects won't appear to be there where your brain expects them to be (because it is a motion prediction machine). If you play the same clip on a 24Hz/48Hz/72Hz/120Hz display, the judder is reduced to what you would expect from a low framerate.

Other influences are contrast and sharpness. High contrast edges or very sharp (in the sense of details) images will also trigger effects in your visual system and it will increase the appearance of judder.
Faster motion means that from frame to frame the object will jump several pixels. The bigger a pixel - because of the screen size - the wider the distance will be and appear as judder.

On a 5" FullHD smartphone screen an object might move 4 pixels per frame but that is only a distance of lets say 0.25mm. On your 24" FullHD monitor the same distance becomes suddenly 1,2 mm and much more visible. On your 60" FullHD TV it is even 3 mm. Of course it will also depend on your viewing distance.

Hi i have noticed I can get similar jerking and have found that image stabilisation can cause this on some camera/lens combinations.

I guess the IS tries to steady the shot as the camera moves and then jumps to the next frame etc, etc

If tripod mounted turn off IS

Hope this helps

Dave

I second that, regarding 24 or 25 fps on 60 Hz screens.

But there is another factor: in a mechanical camera, the edges of the motion blur are soft, while they are harsh with electronic shutters. This is making judder more prominent.

Unfortunately, the best method to overcome this (developed by Tessive) was bought by Red and is not available to others anymore. It's called the Motion Mount. You can read here about temporal aliasing: https://www.red.com/red-101/cinema-temporal-aliasing

It's not a perfect solution since you'd lose some light, but it looks gorgeous, like a film's motion blur. I wish BM could find an arrangement with them to do a similar thing, as they obviously did regarding compressed RAW.

They have quite a bit of good learning about digital cameras in their Red 101, BTW.

Tessive still seems to be around with a software solution (tessive.com), but their latest news is two years old…

24p on 60hz monitors is an often overlooked problem. Some screens can be driven at 120hz which solves it (120/24=5) but mostly you have to ignore it and hope it looks smooth when projected / broadcast. Even with incredibly slow panning you still get this problem.

24p on 60hz monitors is an often overlooked problem. Some screens can be driven at 120hz which solves it (120/24=5) but mostly you have to ignore it and hope it looks smooth when projected / broadcast. Even with incredibly slow panning you still get this problem.

To solve it on video editing preview this is the way...but the camera viewfinder has the same problem.

You could also get an Intensity + a screen with 24p capability for example. That would at least solve the hz-problem on your end.

BM Intensity pro 4K is my preview card.
Are there monitors capables to show 24p 25p 30p 50p 60p shooting without frame judder effect ?
Has someone any suggestion ?