Vertical green screen for reframing

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Tracy

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Vertical green screen for reframing

PostTue Apr 30, 2013 5:46 am

Here is what I would like to do with the Black Magic Cinema Cam.

I am keying a narrator into a virtual set in post usingFCPX. I want to shoot the talent on green screen, head to toe, at 2.5k with the camera vertically oriented. I am editing the show in 720, so I am thinking I can reframe (and obviously rotate) the footage as needed to get everything from a full figure shot to a close up.

Does this sound like it will work? Any gotchas I should look out for?
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Margus Voll

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostTue Apr 30, 2013 6:05 am

in theory it should work but i have not tested myself with bmcc.

just yesterday i was in one seminar where post guy pointed out if they need extra resolution
in situation like this then they film sideways. different camera maker that they was using.

so in theory it should be doable but you should test out before shoot!
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DGFilms

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostTue Apr 30, 2013 6:09 am

Shoot at 30fps and increase the shutter angle to reduce motion blur and reduce green screen bleed, if your subject waves his hand or moves quickly (you can get bleed between fingers when they wave),
Do some testing with shutter angles.

This is all unnecessary if the talent is still and the camera is locked down.

It should be fine to shoot vertically, not sure why you need to?? other than not having a wide enough lens to get close enough to the talent maybe?

here are some shutter angles to consider, thanks Peter J. DeCrescenzo
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7204&p=46775&hilit=shutter+angle#p46641
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostTue Apr 30, 2013 7:21 am

Yes filming vertical will work (cameras wont break if you tilt or rotate them), just be aware that the rolling shutter will be coming from the side now.

Also as a VFX artist that keys footage almost daily, please use something better than FCPX to key, reframe, and rotate your footage... I prefer Primatte Keyer in After Effects (Separate plug-in through Red Giant).

Also make sure you light the green screen correctly, avoid flares, be aware of reflective surfaces, and make sure they don't wear green on green screen unless you want a floating head.
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Aaron Scheiner

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostTue Apr 30, 2013 7:46 am

"It should be fine to shoot vertically, not sure why you need to??"
She's trying to make better use of the available resolution by shooting portrait rather than landscape (humans fit better into portrait). Although 1350p is a big jump from 720p, she's hoping to be able to zoom in digitally to the extent of doing close ups (when the original shot is a full body one).

Some quick tests in Photoshop indicate that you'll have to digitally zoom out to 24% to fit the full body shot into a 720p frame (when it's rotated 90 degrees, so that the subject is upright).

Additionally, the same test indicates that at 96% of the original resolution the 1350p frame will be the equivalent of a head shot. I'll upload an example shortly. (The example below differs from this because the aspect ratio of the test image was different and in reality your subject might need more width than my initial test).

Image
Original image taken from here.
The red borders on the 30% image are the unfilled portion of the 1350p frame.
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DGFilms

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostTue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

TZuck wrote:Yes filming vertical will work (cameras wont break if you tilt or rotate them), just be aware that the rolling shutter will be coming from the side now.

Also as a VFX artist that keys footage almost daily, please use something better than FCPX to key, reframe, and rotate your footage... I prefer Primatte Keyer in After Effects (Separate plug-in through Red Giant).

Also make sure you light the green screen correctly, avoid flares, be aware of reflective surfaces, and make sure they don't wear green on green screen unless you want a floating head.


Keying is key to any green screen work but has nothing to do with frame rates and good lighting, I would agree with TZuck use a decent keyer like Primatte Keyer, But keylight is free with AE 5.5 or above and works a treat with a few other built in plugins,
But hey that's another topic, that probably doesn't belong here.

Good luck
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Tracy

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 1:33 am

DGFilms wrote:, But keylight is free with AE 5.5 or above and works a treat with a few other built in plugins, But hey that's another topic, that probably doesn't belong here


No, that's great advice. I have an Adobe Clod account with AE, but have never tried its keyer. I will look into it.
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Tracy

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 1:45 am

TZuck wrote:Yes filming vertical will work (cameras wont break if you tilt or rotate them),...


Yes, I have shot vertically with many a camera, but never at higher-than-HDRzes. It makes sense logically, but I don't own a BMCC yet, but am trying to justify the purchase of one. I mostly do run-and-gun corporate documentary stuff, so the BMCC is not the most practical cam for this, but we are doing more and more in-studio green, and reframing a single good take to whatever framing we need is VERY appealing.

I have a project coming up that may allow me to experiment with this approach, but the camera will be a rental, so I need to make it work the first time. The advice form this forum is very helpful. Thanks to all!
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Tracy

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 1:55 am

Aaron Scheiner wrote: quick tests in Photoshop indicate that you'll have to digitally zoom out to 24% ...


Zooming out should be no problem. Often the full figure will be tiny on the screen. I am just hoping I can get a decent medium CU post-zooming into the 2432 to a 720 CU. in theory it should be copacetic, but theory goes out the window with limited studio time, talent, and a rental camera. :)
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Chris Hocking

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 2:19 am

DGFilms wrote:Keying is key to any green screen work but has nothing to do with frame rates and good lighting


Having good software is important - but good lighting and exposure is just as, if not more important.

Bad lighting can be the different between a good shot and a horrible shot.

It's also important to remember, no one ever see's the green screen once the comp is finished - so it's the talent that is the most important thing to light properly. If you get this wrong and the subject doesn't fit into the scene, then the whole illusion is lost.

Light the talent, then the screen. If you get these things right, and shoot it with a decent camera - it will be so much easier to pull a key regardless of whether you're using FCPX or After Effects.

My 2c.
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Tracy

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 3:15 am

Chris Hocking wrote:
DGFilms wrote:... but good lighting and exposure is just as, if not more important...


Thanks Chris. I'm not a lighting guy, but I am bringing in experienced guys I have worked with on green projects before. My only concern was that none of us have used a BMCC before.
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Tracy

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 2:34 pm

Aaron Scheiner wrote:be able to zoom in digitally to the extent of doing close ups (when the original shot is a full body one.


After doing some PhotoShop tests (below), I think I've determined that 2.5k doesn't give me enough of an advantage over 1080p to be worth the trouble. Shooting 4k however would give me the full control of shot choices in post that I am after.

Image
Last edited by Tracy on Wed May 01, 2013 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 2:39 pm

DGFilms wrote:
TZuck wrote:Yes filming vertical will work (cameras wont break if you tilt or rotate them), just be aware that the rolling shutter will be coming from the side now.

Also as a VFX artist that keys footage almost daily, please use something better than FCPX to key, reframe, and rotate your footage... I prefer Primatte Keyer in After Effects (Separate plug-in through Red Giant).

Also make sure you light the green screen correctly, avoid flares, be aware of reflective surfaces, and make sure they don't wear green on green screen unless you want a floating head.


Keying is key to any green screen work but has nothing to do with frame rates and good lighting, I would agree with TZuck use a decent keyer like Primatte Keyer, But keylight is free with AE 5.5 or above and works a treat with a few other built in plugins,
But hey that's another topic, that probably doesn't belong here.

Good luck


Keylight is free going back before CS4.
and as far as lighting goes I was speaking about lighting the actual green screen, because this is a very important thing when keying. will save you so much time and trouble if you light the green screen correctly.
so yes good lighting has a lot to do with keying. frame rates not as much as shutter speed/angle and even that is preferential in my opinion.

and as far as why would you want to film vertically: well as a VFX artist its really nice to have as much possible resolution as I can get. If you film a tall person on a wide format, you have a ton of wasted space. shooting vertically gives you ~78% more room to work with so you can use one shot for anything from as wide as you want to a good medium close up. where as shooting horizontally gives you only wide to super wide.

now the only caveat to this is depending on the action that the talent is doing, if they are going to be running around then you'll shoot horizontal, but if you film in 2.5k the more resolution the better. It's why 4K is very attractive, you take the initial hit up front, but then you can repurpose shots for delivery in todays age (1080p or lower unless cinema)

UPDATE:
i recommend still filming 2.5k raw for green screen if you don't mind the space it will take. RAW is awesome for VFX, gives you so much more control than ProRes. Trust me.

also its 2400 x 1350 for the 2.5k
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Brad Ballew

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 3:47 pm

How do you guys mount your camera for vertical shots. Or are you just putting your camera sideways on the tripod and tilting the head?
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 7:02 pm

Brad Ballew wrote:How do you guys mount your camera for vertical shots. Or are you just putting your camera sideways on the tripod and tilting the head?

great question. there's certain tripod heads that will allow you to "roll" the camera. you could also just lay it on its side as it's completely flat on the side of the ssd but you'll most likely need to balance for the lens. you can also make rigs to do this.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 7:44 pm

TZuck wrote:great question. there's certain tripod heads that will allow you to "roll" the camera. you could also just lay it on its side as it's completely flat on the side of the ssd but you'll most likely need to balance for the lens. you can also make rigs to do this.


Or just get an L bracket :)
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Tracy

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 8:54 pm

Brad Ballew wrote:How do you guys mount your camera for vertical shots. Or are you just putting your camera sideways on the tripod and tilting the head?


My DP built this rig so we could quickly switch between vertical and horizontal.

Image
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 9:00 pm

I've been using a version of this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=723386&is=REG&Q=&A=details for portrait and landscape photography. I shoot a lot of landscapes in vertical format. :)

This is of course not an ideal option if you don't use an Arca-Swiss style clamp, but you can get the clamps and rails separately. The Really Right Stuff gear is also very robust and user friendly. I'm hoping these guys get into video supports; they make some of the best lightweight ballheads on the market, and recently launched a new line of tripods that has an astonishing strength to weight ratio (even better than Gitzo), so I'm hoping...
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Aaron Scheiner

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 9:10 pm

That's a very cool rig Tracy! I use a Manfrotto stills tripod head which can hold the camera exactly at 90 degrees and I usually attach it to a normal video Manfrotto tripod. It works quite well, but it does confuse people... I still have to find a solution that'll work with a teleprompter :( .
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Tracy

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 10:38 pm

Aaron Scheiner wrote:That's a very cool rig Tracy!... I still have to find a solution that'll work with a teleprompter :( .


Thanks. It worked great. We needed vertical footage of a trade show exhibit, but wanted to acquire standard framing for future uses. We were able to do a take, then immediately flip the orientation and do another take. Worked really well for run-and-gun corporate documentary work. And we were able to use the fluid head for both orientations.

My next task is to retrofit my teleprompter to this kind of rig. That should be easier since that project will be locked down.
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Trevor Zuck

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostWed May 01, 2013 10:42 pm

Tamerlin wrote:
TZuck wrote:great question. there's certain tripod heads that will allow you to "roll" the camera. you could also just lay it on its side as it's completely flat on the side of the ssd but you'll most likely need to balance for the lens. you can also make rigs to do this.


Or just get an L bracket :)


speaking of L brackets, they work great for a side handle. one of them and a block of wood and bam cheap side handle

Image

but back on topic it appears as the solution to this thread has been made. if you have anymore vfx related questions just send me a message
- TZ

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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostThu May 02, 2013 6:40 am

TZuck wrote:speaking of L brackets, they work great for a side handle. one of them and a block of wood and bam cheap side handle


Clever solution!
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Chris Hocking

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Re: Vertical green screen for reframing

PostSat May 04, 2013 7:10 am

There's always the "making it up as you go along" way...

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