Insane moire with BMPCC 6K that was not present in-camera

Well, it's pretty bad. I've never seen anything like that on the 4K. Unless you can get him to change his shirt, I think you need another camera for that shot. Or at least a different lens.

He'd rather not re-shoot so I am going to try to slightly blur the shirt and nothing else. We'll see if it works.

Good to know for future shoots that the in-camera monitor is unreliable and to avoid any and all high-frequency patterns.

Also be aware, it's much worse in the GUI, than on an external monitor. You won't be able to judge the result on the GUI alone.

In the days of analog broadcasting, we had illegel colors and clothes which you did not use on set. The color Red would bloom and flashy shirts like the one in The OP’s video were not used for this very reason.
Cheers

Also be aware, it's much worse in the GUI, than on an external monitor. You won't be able to judge the result on the GUI alone.

I don't have an external monitor in the setup at work. I'll bring my Intensity Pro from home tomorrow and output to a TV but unfortunately I'll only be able to monitor in 1080 and I plan to export in UHD. Thanks for that tip.

Something wrong is not right here...

I see almost no moire at all in the footage you provided (at full res/quality). I see only a tiny bit when playing back (optimized quality) but nothing even close to what you showed.

Probably, you're not handling the file properly.

I see almost no moire at all in the footage you provided (at full res/quality). I see only a tiny bit when playing back (optimized quality) but nothing even close to what you showed.

Probably, you're not handling the file properly.

What's your setup? Operating system, Resolve version, etc.

Me - Windows 10, latest build, Resolve Studio 16.0

Monitor resolution?

What settings are you using?

What's your graphics card? And driver version?

I'm using an RTX 2070 with the very latest Studio Driver - 431.86

Can you export your Resolve project file and share it so I can try your settings on my system?

Thanks kindly!

Michael, I haven’t had an issue with moire on the BMPCC4K yet, but it might happen. Telling someone to change their shirt or their tie or their jacket isn’t going to go over well but there aren’t many other options for many shoots where you just make it right (with compromises) in post. And when it doesn’t show in the camera monitor, how you gonna know!

For a film with a decent budget, you actually need to film the costumes under different lighting and at different distances and lenses to verify in post they are acceptable. A costume designer and cinema makeup artist learns what is needed as was documented for The Hobbit I believe it was.

For my no budget efforts I just ask people to avoid wearing certain clothes (certain synthetic materials are horrid) and encourage them to wear plain clothes with cotton and natural fibers and keep my fingers crossed. Hope next year there is film budget to do a proper test of costumes though.


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Okay, I think it's a debayering issue. My GPU can't handle 6K files and it appears to be defaulting to lesser quality, with the moire as one result.

When I transcoded the braw file to HD, the moire is fairly minimal.

What you need to do is go into user preferences, deselect the "auto" quality mode, then set debayer quality to "full" in the raw tab. then see what happens.

Michael, I haven’t had an issue with moire on the BMPCC4K yet, but it might happen. Telling someone to change their shirt or their tie or their jacket isn’t going to go over well but there aren’t many other options for many shoots where you just make it right (with compromises) in post. And when it doesn’t show in the camera monitor, how you gonna know!

For a film with a decent budget, you actually need to film the costumes under different lighting and at different distances and lenses to verify in post they are acceptable. A costume designer and cinema makeup artist learns what is needed as was documented for The Hobbit I believe it was.

For my no budget efforts I just ask people to avoid wearing certain clothes (certain synthetic materials are horrid) and encourage them to wear plain clothes with cotton and natural fibers and keep my fingers crossed. Hope next year there is film budget to do a proper test of costumes though.


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Yes I totally understand all of that. I'm well aware of the potential for moire and I should have asked him to change shirts, I didn't because we were short on time and there was no evidence of moire in-camera. I'm usually the "better safe than sorry" type but yesterday I trusted my eyes and not my gut - big mistake!

The 6K camera is so new and I'm a Sony shooter that I'm still figuring out the quirks and features of this system. Overall I'm really not a fan, especially because I normally use ACES and the BRAW footage looks like poop when using ACES in Resolve. But it's what we're using at this new company I just started with so I'll get the hang of it soon.

duplicate post, deleted

Okay, I think it's a debayering issue. My GPU can't handle 6K files and it appears to be defaulting to lesser quality, with the moire as one result.

When I transcoded the braw file to HD, the moire is fairly minimal.

What you need to do is go into user preferences, deselect the "auto" quality mode, then set debayer quality to "full" in the raw tab. then see what happens.

When you say "User Preferences" and "Auto" quality mode, is this the settings page you're referring to?

Capture 2.PNG (38.9 KiB) Viewed 6695 times

Yes. I'm not sure what the difference is between manual and disable. I would disable, for this test.

Yes. I'm not sure what the difference is between manual and disable. I would disable, for this test.

Tried all the different settings, nothing made a difference. Also tried changing the resize filter in Project Settings from "Sharper" to "Smoother" to no avail.

I'm about to try OpenCL vs CUDA. Hope that does something! (UPDATE: It did nothing)

It still looks bad on the GUI, but the external display is good. You can't judge, based on the GUI.

EDIT: if you have the Studio version of Resolve, you can configure an external display through your GPU card.

It still looks bad on the GUI, but the external display is good. You can't judge, based on the GUI.

EDIT: if you have the Studio version of Resolve, you can configure an external display through your GPU card.

I did not know that about external displays in the Studio version. I do have that, could you point me to instructions for how to set that up? Or give me a quick screenshot? Thanks!

Go to the Workspace menu on top, then full screen monitor>on>display#.

Go to the Workspace menu on top, then full screen monitor>on>display#.

I don't seem to have that option. Am I missing something?

Capture 3.PNG (195.75 KiB) Viewed 6668 times

This is what a UHD ProRes HQ export looks like for me:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9ei1mjvpv6y2 ... D.mov?dl=0

This is what a UHD ProRes HQ export looks like for me:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9ei1mjvpv6y2 ... D.mov?dl=0

Wow! That's how it should look. Maybe it's a Mac vs PC thing? Are you using Metal as your GPU processing mode? (I'm referring to the preview in Dropbox, which I realized is only 720p. Does it look normal in UHD on your Mac? How did it look in Resolve?)

EDIT: This gets even more bizarre. I brought your ProRes UHD export back into Resolve and the moire is back!!

This is a screenshot of your ProRes clip in my project:

Capture 4.PNG (903.67 KiB) Viewed 6656 times

So it seems it's possible to export the clip without moire, but what am I doing wrong??? I'm pretty good with post-production so this has me really scratching my head...

Ok, thanks for example! That shirt is really hard task for any camera but 6K resolution holds it really well.

I see really hard moire only when i playback footage, so it is only realtime debayer problem for sure.

I set timeline to HD, and i can not see any dramatic changes in moire when i switch scaling method from Sharper to Smoother. But for some reason when i switch to Bicubic, moire became really visible. Not sure if it is a bug in Resolve 16.1 beta or some specific feature for Bicubic scaling method.

Sort of chroma aliasing mixed with chrome noise is slightly visible around shirt texture, so I can recommend to add very small amount of SNR for Chroma only for this shot. Image example looks really beautiful. Frame processed as usual using this workflow viewtopic.php?f=21&t=65149&p=537852#p537852

This is what a UHD ProRes HQ export looks like for me:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9ei1mjvpv6y2 ... D.mov?dl=0

Wow! That's how it should look. Maybe it's a Mac vs PC thing? Are you using Metal as your GPU processing mode?

Moiré is still visible, but not nearly as bad as the first still you posted. This was actually with Resolve Studio in its default preferences, with GPU Processing set to Auto since I just installed Resolve 16.1 B2 minutes ago. I don't know how being on a Mac would be different, but I'll let others with more understanding of these things chime in.

An export at source resolution gives me similar results:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tomfadn8jwf83 ... K.mov?dl=0

The moire in the screenshot is probably the GUI thing again. It creates moire where there is none.

You haven't offered your system specs. It could be the GPU can't handle the debayer, which is affecting the exports.

This is what a UHD ProRes HQ export looks like for me:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9ei1mjvpv6y2 ... D.mov?dl=0

Wow! That's how it should look. Maybe it's a Mac vs PC thing? Are you using Metal as your GPU processing mode?

Moiré is still visible, but not nearly as bad as the first still you posted. This was actually with Resolve Studio in its default preferences, with GPU Processing set to Auto since I just installed Resolve 16.1 B2 minutes ago. I don't know how being on a Mac would be different, but I'll let others with more understanding of these things chime in.

An export at source resolution gives me similar results:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tomfadn8jwf83 ... K.mov?dl=0

Might have to give 16.1 Beta 2 a shot...

The shot is absolutely fine. Given that the subject is essentially wearing a resolution test chart, it's actually quite amazing that it doesn't cause moiré but I can assure you that the shot has absolutely no moiré that I can see. What the shot actually shows is how good the 6K is at avoiding moiré.

See for yourself.
This is a screenshot from Resolve GUI at 100% view on a UHD timeline

Screen Shot 2019-09-07 at 1.30.37 PM.jpg (221.01 KiB) Viewed 6664 times

Here is a link to that shot rendered out to UHD ProResHQ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ky8Yxvz1cuIFY-aNrPrfyKLv262AEMfo

and for those with HD monitors, here's a version rendered out to HD ProResHQ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11gFQbyDTaUtgi2WuBFGJld2KKlhqCneH

****** If you try to play back the UHD ProResHQ clip full screen on an HD monitor, either the monitor or the software will have to scale it and that scaling will invariably introduce moiré, so if you don't have a 4K/UHD monitor, watch the HD version, don't go claiming that the UHD version has moiré if you're not actually looking at a 4K/UHD monitor or at the very least viewing it properly cropped 1 to 1 for the pixels on an HD monitor****

There is no moiré in the UHD file when viewed unscaled 1 to 1 on a 4K/UHD monitor.

The OP is doing something wrong in the Resolve settings. See my earlier post about what to check.

EDIT: It's worth mentioning that even if your camera and post processing is absolutely perfect, it's always a bad idea to dress your actors/interviewees in tiny patterns like this because you have no control over whether the distribution chain or the viewing display will add scaling that causes moiré to appear down the line.

Here is also UHD export (see full sized image in new tab):

The moire in the screenshot is probably the GUI thing again. It creates moire where there is none.

You haven't offered your system specs. It could be the GPU can't handle the debayer, which is affecting the exports.

I gave my GPU specs in one of my posts. Here are the detailed specs again:

RTX 2070, Nvidia Studio Driver 431.86

CPU - Intel Core i7 5820K

RAM - 48GB Corsair DDR4

Windows 10 Pro Version 1903 OS Build 18362.329

Let me know if you need any other specs

I also tried de-selecting "Use GPU for Blackmagic RAW Decode" and it made no difference

The GPU is fine, I think the issue is, you have no means of actually viewing the clip accurately on your system, for whatever reason -- scaling, resolution, etc. If you update to the latest beta, maybe the full screen viewer option will come up.

The GPU is fine, I think the issue is, you have no means of actually viewing the clip accurately on your system, for whatever reason -- scaling, resolution, etc. If you update to the latest beta, maybe the full screen viewer option will come up.

Yes, it appears I can't accurately monitor the footage. Which is a massive headache. Not sue what I could be doing differently. I've never had a problem like this before.

I checked all my settings, disabled performance mode, have BRAW set to decode at full resolution, tried 1080/UHD/6K project settings, nothing is showing me what the people with Macs seem to be seeing.

John you are on Windows and also seeing bad moire in the GUI, right? How does it look when you export it?

Mac users, how does it look in your GUI?

In the GUI you will always see that hard moire. Just don't care about this

Michael, quit ACES. Try working on YRGB.
Im on Windows too on a much weaker machine than yours. Changing from ACES seems to be what remains to try.

Just for fun. Same UHD example but with K65 film emulation LUT.

Are you trolling me? Those samples are absolutely useless for examination.

Yes Robert, he is a troll, and unfortunately you are far too nice of a person to have determined it from his very first post.

Michael, quit ACES. Try working on YRGB.
Im on Windows too on a much weaker machine than yours. Changing from ACES seems to be what remains to try.

I'm not using ACES with the BRAW footage. I was lamenting the fact that it looks awful, when Sony RAW (and RED RAW and Arri LogC) all look gorgeous using ACES.

Are you trolling me? Those samples are absolutely useless for examination.

Yes Robert, he is a troll, and unfortunately you are far too nice of a person to have determined it from his very first post.

Someone must have pooped in your Cheerios this morning.

Nice to see so many helping to solve this problem. I’ll be honest, the shirt was just a rough choice from the start, but like you said, you couldn’t fix it because you couldn’t see it. Definitely not a P6K camera issue.

I'm not using ACES with the BRAW footage. I was lamenting the fact that it looks awful, when Sony RAW (and RED RAW and Arri LogC) all look gorgeous using ACES.

Huh? That's nonsense.
The shot is absolutely fine in ACES too.

Screen Shot 2019-09-07 at 2.40.19 PM.jpg (183.08 KiB) Viewed 6625 times

I'm not using ACES with the BRAW footage. I was lamenting the fact that it looks awful, when Sony RAW (and RED RAW and Arri LogC) all look gorgeous using ACES.

Huh? That's nonsense.
The shot is absolutely fine in ACES too.

Screen Shot 2019-09-07 at 2.40.19 PM.jpg

That's so strange. Last week when I used ACES it looked completely wrong. This week it looks normal.

Does the GPU have any impact on how footage is processed when using ACES? Last week this computer had two GT740 GPUs (way out of date and under-powered) so we upgraded to an RTX 2070. That's the only thing I can think of that would cause ACES to behave differently from one week to the next.

That's so strange. Last week when I used ACES it looked completely wrong. This week it looks normal.

Does the GPU have any impact on how footage is processed when using ACES? Last week this computer had two GT740 GPUs (way out of date and under-powered) so we upgraded to an RTX 2070. That's the only thing I can think of that would cause ACES to behave differently from one week to the next.

Based on what I've seen so far, I doubt it's a hardware issue. The most likely explanation is just user error. It happens to us all from time to time.

My advice would be to find a colleague or friend who is knowledgeable with Resolve to help you set up your system, displays, preferences, and project settings to get you started off right.

Michael, you are dealing with a different camera, that does not work like a Sony (I shot for 20 years with Sony Cameras), has a different workflow and using new software, it is going to take some time and practice to dial everything in to your new workflow. Keep plugging away at it, and in know time you will have this down.
Cheers

Michael, just guessing but in the Preferences / User Settings you had all the Optimize options turned On. If turn them off. I think they’ll be taking shortcuts to optimize for playback and you don’t want that in this case. Let us know if this works.


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What's essential is, a mini-monitor Decklink card (or better), so you can actually see what you're doing. Whatever's going on with the GUI doesn't really matter. The clip looks like crap in my GUI as well (Windows). That guy picked the worst shirt in the Western hemisphere.

As for playback and export, what's important is that you're debayering at highest quality, which the rtx2070 should be able to handle, particularly if you set the timeline and monitoring to 4K or lower.

Chris, what lenses or other optics were you using?

1980's Leica M 35mm f2 and 50mm f2. Just with a Voigtlander dumb adapter.
Contrary to 'word on the street', I don't find this era of Leica M lenses to be as sharp as modern lenses such as Sigma. Although they are certainly more sharp that more middle of the road vintage lenses.
Trying to upload the BRAW frame as requested above.
First attempt: I get the message 'can't upload .braw expansion.
So I changed the text on the file to .jpeg and now it says can't upload the file as it is too big: 1.2MB

Help?

This is a rough grade (not good) I did for a quick Instagram post. Moire is not catastrophic, but visible on my left shoulder/arm - right side as you are looking at it.

Video Still_1.2.2.jpg (594.15 KiB) Viewed 6554 times

I'm getting it on the supplied normal samples of the original image above as I zoom in, as the resolution on the display and the source do not match and this things hardware tries to upres. So, yes, the hardware, and OS, can get in the way. Turning off all those options (even in card and OS) and viewing in monitor at the same resolution is what to do. There is another thing, auto quality, is not good if you aim for full quality

By the way, fwiw, the slight moire I experienced was visible as soon as I imported the BRAW files, and didn't get worse after I graded and exported the footage from Resolve to Youtube.
So it was mainly a wrong choice of shirt by me.

Yes, I should have had him change shirts. But the problem here is this: if I can't trust what the on-camera monitor is showing me, why is it even there in the first place?

Well I like to think of this monitor as a MENU monitor. You use this touch screen to change camera parameters and access the menu.

If you need critical evaluation, then you should get a proper legitimate precision monitor.

It's not my camera. I shoot with Sony cameras exclusively. And I never have problems like this.

I have with Sony cameras. So have others.

The only time I've ever had shots rejected on a tech check was with a Sony F55 that had moire.

So we know now that actually it wasn't insane moire with the P6K that wasn't present in camera, but in fact was the OP's Resolve setup ?

There is an OLPF that should be available soon from RAWLITE. Considering how poor choice of wardrobe was, it's kind of amazing that it didn't have MORE problem in the end.

A lot of cameras will moire under the right circumstances, as I mentioned above, I've had F55 shots bounced for it before. Having a larger resolution sensor helps, and so does using older lenses, longer focal lengths, subjects that don't have very fine detail.

If you're shooting this kind of material then getting an appropriate aftermarket OLPF is the very best way to mitigate it.

And I'd never shoot 3200 ISO for a chroma composite on any camera. That's just asking for trouble. The 3200K native ISO setting on the P4K has less dynamic range and more noise than shooting it at 400 iso.

JB

Until Venice most Sony cameras had an OLPF that was too weak. The F3 was notorious!

So we know now that actually it wasn't insane moire with the P6K that wasn't present in camera, but in fact was the OP's Resolve setup ?

Yup. When that shot was imported into Resolve with correct settings and then output to a UHD OLED monitor (connected via BMD Decklink 4K Extreme 12G) I could not see any moiré in the shot. And when rendered out to a UHD ProResHQ file that I then played back on the same UHD OLED monitor 1 to 1, I could not see any moiré. Also, when I cropped the 6K source to UHD, so I was viewing 1 to 1 pixels from the original file on a UHD OLED monitor, there was no moiré.

This is a rough grade (not good) I did for a quick Instagram post. Moire is not catastrophic, but visible on my left shoulder/arm - right side as you are looking at it.

Your shirt is exactly the kind of fabric that would cause moiré to appear on my Ursa Mini Pro and Ursa Mini 4.6K before I installed RAWLITE OLPF. Since putting them in, it hasn't been an issue.

I don't have an OLPF in the 4K Pocket, but I mainly use that camera either handheld or on a Movi so motion blur (or soft focus) likely prevents the shots I'm taking from being sharp enough to cause it to appear even with fine patterns like the threads in that shirt.