Sensor production ramping up

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Mike Collier

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Sensor production ramping up

PostFri Jun 14, 2013 7:23 pm

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/towerjazz-and-cmosis-announce-ramp-to-volume-production-for-cmosis-12-megapixel-cmv12000-2013-06-11

Found a report today about the rumored 4K sensor ramping up production. It seemed like something worth sharing.
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rick.lang

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 1:49 am

randomacronym wrote:http://www.marketwatch.com/story/towerjazz-and-cmosis-announce-ramp-to-volume-production-for-cmosis-12-megapixel-cmv12000-2013-06-11

Found a report today about the rumored 4K sensor ramping up production. It seemed like something worth sharing.


If this is the sensor in the BMPC4K as we all suspect, it does corroborate Grant Petty's informal update that BMD does not have sensor supply issues for that camera.

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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 2:22 am

Sure would be nice to know how many of those "644,000 [sensors] in 2015" will be in BMPC-4K cams, if in fact they are the sensor BMD uses.

I don't really care what sensor they use, as long as the footage can look insanely great and the hardware is extremely reliable!

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Mac Jaeger

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 12:39 pm

One interesting tidbit i found in the linked press release:
The CMV 12000 product features 5.5 x 5.5 um pixels laid out in a high-resolution 4096 x 3072 matrix covering superHD (4k) resolution in an APS-C optical format. It offers high sensitivity and low noise, global shutter and a frame rate of 150 fps

If this is indeed the sensor in PC4K, there might be potential for higher framerates in the future...
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rick.lang

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 7:13 pm

Mac Jaeger wrote:One interesting tidbit i found in the linked press release:
The CMV 12000 product features 5.5 x 5.5 um pixels laid out in a high-resolution 4096 x 3072 matrix covering superHD (4k) resolution in an APS-C optical format. It offers high sensitivity and low noise, global shutter and a frame rate of 150 fps

If this is indeed the sensor in PC4K, there might be potential for higher framerates in the future...


The sensor has the capability but the implementation in the BMPC4K may be a limiting factor considering the speed of their chips, the heat generated, the speed of SSD recording media, and so on. True they may be able to increase frame rates in firmware but I would doubt it would be anywhere near 150fps without a complete redesign of the camera internals. Technology is always a moving target and by the time that BMD might redesign the camera, there could well be a future generation of the processor itself. Do you redesign for improving the operations of the current processor or do you redesign for the next generation? Most will choose to do the best they can today with what is available today at their price point and then move on for their next generation challenges with a new camera.

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSat Jun 15, 2013 7:53 pm

Don't get me wrong, i don't think this years PC4K will ever have higher framerates; but i can imagine that BM could build upon the PC4K design and update it to "Production Camera 4K Mark II" in the near future, with 48 to 72 fps, without reinventing the whole camera from scratch.
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Mike Collier

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSun Jun 16, 2013 1:05 am

I suppose it is possible future generations could come in a HS model-and it would be nice if the spectral response curve was identical to the sync speed camera (it would fit traditional model of cameras- the 435 and 535 both came in standard and HS models. Even an Extreme model). That would be nice-you don't always need HS footage, and switching cameras on the few days you need it, it would be nice to have a camera you know will cut well-rather than having to test FS700 vs Phantom vs whatever else you want to try.

What I think is very promising with this chip is its adjustable Dynamic Range mode. If you go into the product flyer, it is able to adjust its dynamic response (sort of similar to a knee adjustment) on the fly-on the chip. Knee adjustments traditionally is for compressing a 10-stop range say into an 8 bit recording medium. It did nothing to increase the size of the "well" of the actual chip.

This sensor does this on the fly-on the chip. Possibly with the global shutter circuit. If you look at the specs, the actual native dynamic range is 10-stops (13e- to 13500e- = 1048, about 10 stops), so BMD must already be doing some of this to get to their 12stop spec. The chip maxes out at 15 stops (however will only quantize 12 bits, so to get to 15 stops you necessarily get less granularity between light values.)

It seems the 12 stop spec is to get a good balance between DR and no banding (mathematically, 12 stops requires 12 bits-due to the similar exponential nature of light and digital quantization) What would be interesting is if BMD can develop a couple extra curves, similar to Sony with their S-log, and offer a wider range of DR to customers in the existing camera. The trade off being higher DR/less latitude to grade in post, or full grad-ability they have now/slightly less DR. The artistic decision would likely be based on how contrasty of an image you want to have (more contrasty, go for more grade-ability. If you want a low-con look, start with less contrast and less ability to dial the contrast up.)

Looking at the quick specs it is entirely doable in the 4K camera they are coming out with now, with no hit to on-board CPU resources, data throughput at any point in the pipeline. It would mean extra metadata, and extra color science and possibly an extra mode in resolve to handle the new log curves. but totally doable with nothing more than a software change.

One other standout from the product flyer-it has a 2 sided anti-reflective coated glass lid...which means there should be no shenanigans with one supplying the chip who then hands it off to a glass bonding who then messes up the quality. They have been attaching this glass successfully for the last year, and so hopefully they will not ship any sensors that don't pass BMDs QC. It should be a simple thing of the assembling robot taking the sensor out of the tray, placing it on the board, send it through the soldering oven and presto. Should lead to a high yield production line (perhaps all of these weighed into BMD's thought process in selecting a new chip for their 4K camera?)
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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSun Jun 16, 2013 4:01 am

randomacronym wrote:...If you look at the specs, the actual native dynamic range is 10-stops (13e- to 13500e- = 1048, about 10 stops), so BMD must already be doing some of this to get to their 12stop spec. The chip maxes out at 15 stops (however will only quantize 12 bits, so to get to 15 stops you necessarily get less granularity between light values.)

It seems the 12 stop spec is to get a good balance between DR and no banding (mathematically, 12 stops requires 12 bits-due to the similar exponential nature of light and digital quantization) What would be interesting is if BMD can develop a couple extra curves, similar to Sony with their S-log, and offer a wider range of DR to customers in the existing camera...


With the BMCC sensor, BMD have a 12bit log raw output recorded from 16bit linear internal data in the camera apparently originating from more than 16 bits from the sensor. Out of that we can represent about 13 stops dynamic range in FILM (log) mode. BMD have the experience designing log curves.

With the BMPC4K, I understand the 13500e-/13e- = 1038 or roughly 2 to the power of 10, but I'm not understanding where the claim of 15 stops is derived. Is that 12 bits that is quantized itself a log curve based on 15 or 16 bits of data from the sensor that allows them to say the chip supports 15 stops?

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Mike Collier

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostSun Jun 16, 2013 6:27 pm

this might clear things up a bit:

https://www.apertus.org/axiom_imagesensor

The sensor itself increases its dynamic response by changing its response from linear to a somewhat logarithmic curve in the photosite itself. So the well charge is still maxed out at 13500 e-, but that charge represents 5 stops more light than with a linear curve. So the chip is still spitting out a 12 bit sampling, regardless of the DR mode used, and BMD must have pegged 12 stops as the cleanest balance between grade-ability and dynamic range. This doesn't mean that in a firmware update they couldn't give us a bit of choice in the matter to get us to 13, 14, or 15 stops, if we are willing to accept the tradeoffs that would impart on the image.
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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostMon Jun 17, 2013 3:07 am

randomacronym wrote:this might clear things up a bit:

https://www.apertus.org/axiom_imagesensor

The sensor itself increases its dynamic response by changing its response from linear to a somewhat logarithmic curve in the photosite itself. So the well charge is still maxed out at 13500 e-, but that charge represents 5 stops more light than with a linear curve. So the chip is still spitting out a 12 bit sampling, regardless of the DR mode used, and BMD must have pegged 12 stops as the cleanest balance between grade-ability and dynamic range. This doesn't mean that in a firmware update they couldn't give us a bit of choice in the matter to get us to 13, 14, or 15 stops, if we are willing to accept the tradeoffs that would impart on the image.


Thanks, now I have a better understanding and why BMD wasn't definitive on the DR of the BMPC4K since it must take a lot of experimentation to determine what they are going to offer. Sure 15 stops dynamic range sounds great but if there is a trade off in detail in the low and middle ranges, you need to be very cautious.

By the way if anyone is confused about the debayering of the 4K to generate better colour for 2K and HD, click on the button at the bottom of the linked page so see more information. There is a nice graphic that illustrates a simple approach to derive the colour of your video.

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostTue Jul 02, 2013 1:16 pm

Hey Guys just looking at Bmc sunset. Is the sun absolutely blacked out? I have been a bit concerned about this… as I saw a identical problem with some other BMCC video. How bad is it?


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Peter J. DeCrescenzo

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Re: Sensor production ramping up

PostTue Jul 02, 2013 2:27 pm

markspend01 wrote:Hey Guys just looking at Bmc sunset. Is the sun absolutely blacked out? I have been a bit concerned about this… as I saw a identical problem with some other BMCC video. How bad is it?


See:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9598

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