Help me with on-Camera SOUND!

Preface
So I leave for a month long epic trip to Australia....next week. During this trip I'm shooting two small docs. I normally shoot with off-camera audio. Rode stereomic pro and lavs running into an external recorded and then synching after. Due to the run and gun nature of this trip, I want to use on camera audio. So I have determined I need, at a minimum, a better shotgun mic and an external pre-amp/mixer.

Request
Can you audio guys help me choose the two components I need to get decent audio onto my BMCC? For the mic, I want a good shotgun that is preferably under 9" long, can be phantom powered, and provided solid attenuation of off axis sound. That is why we buy shotguns right? (I've read 100 reviews in the past 24 hours and so many talk about picking up off-axis sounds )

The pre-amp/mixer needs to provide meters, phantom power and clean gain.

My budget is $800 for both. I know, right.

So either a decent mixer and a great mic...or a great mixer and a decent mic.

I've found several devices that are coming out in the next 2 months, but I need to buy now. I thought about going cheap for now and upgrading later, but I just can't do that to any productions I shoot. I want the best sound I can get.

Right now, I have it down to the Rode NTG-1 & Beachtek DXA-BMD passive adapter. The beachtek isn't a preamp, but with phantom power, I'm hoping the mic has a decent enough output. From the reviews I've read, it seems like it does. The beachtek seems like a simple solution to get audio into the BMCC, even comes with the nice short cables.

I'd like the Juicedlink BM366...but it's not available yet. The Riggy micro and it don't have meters either though. So I would need the Riggy Assist, which has a 4 led meter, but the audio is apparently excellent. It would also mean I need a cheaper mic.

The Rode NTG-1 w/beachtek passive adapter
or
The Audio_technica AT875 w/Juicedlink RA222

So what's going to give me the best audio? mixer or mic?

Any other ideas? I have to buy today...like in the next 4 hours! no pressure

Preface
So I leave for a month long epic trip to Australia....next week. During this trip I'm shooting two small docs. I normally shoot with off-camera audio. Rode stereomic pro and lavs running into an external recorded and then synching after. Due to the run and gun nature of this trip, I want to use on camera audio. So I have determined I need, at a minimum, a better shotgun mic and an external pre-amp/mixer.

Request
Can you audio guys help me choose the two components I need to get decent audio onto my BMCC?

...My budget is $800 for both. I know, right.

So either a decent mixer and a great mic...or a great mixer and a decent mic....

Any other ideas? I have to buy today...like in the next 4 hours! no pressure

Is renting something better an option for you and then buy later the gear you really want?

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

my setup is a sound devices mixpre-d ($899 b&h) + sennheiser 416 p48 microphone ($999.95 b&h) all fed into a tascam dr-100 ($329.99 b&h). so quite a bit out of your pricerange. the thing with sound equipment is to build it up over time, so get the best you can because you will notice the difference. the microphone I got second hand on ebay for £215 (~$337), so there are deals out there - but I don't think you are going to get a good preamp within your budget. the sennheiser is built to last forever, so if you can find one second hand I'd go for it (best to check it out in person before paying though).

to me a rode mic is a false economy, just not proper professional quality sound. do not get a passive adapter you _need_ a preamp, but how about the beachtek dxa-slr ($285 b&h) it has preamps but not very good monitoring (just peaking). likewise the sound devices mm-1 ($499 b&h) which will have a great preamp - but its only one-in-one-out.

I've heard the juicedlinks sound good, but to me they don't look very professional and I think you'd probably quite soon replace them with a better mixer.

edit:

just noticed the dxa-slr doesn't have xlr outs which would put me off thinking about it - and actually all those beachtek devices seem aimed towards the amateur end of the market. could work in the short term though.

I own the Samon C02 Condenser Pencil Mic. It's cheap, and very compact (its short on a boom) I use just the one but they're also availialbe in a pair. It does a decent job. Its powered only by Phantom.

What about the Audio Developments AD071. I've never heard of them but looking at their website they look formidable. Anyone have any information on this device. There's a post for a group buy on the other site.

As far as the recorder/mixer goes you might want to look at the Tascam DR-60.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/929347-REG/tascam_dr_60d_4_ch_track_linear_pcm.html

It's relatively small, can mount on top of or below the camera, has a ton of great features, and sounds good.

I've heard some negative things about the quality of the digital preamp on the Tascam...

If I could afford the $1500 for the AD071, I would probably just get the Sound Devices 302...

Has anyone heard of this Azden unit?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... Mixer.html

I've heard some negative things about the quality of the digital preamp on the Tascam...

The issue is not the quality but the fact that the gain is stepped in 3dB increments, making smooth adjustments while recording impossible. There's talk of a firmware upgrade for this issue but certainly not in time for your trip.

Either way, have fun.....

I can't recommend the Fostex DC-R302 more highly. Three great pre-amps, pads, panning control, phantom power, the works. Plus it's a mixer and recorder in one box, so it's great for run and gun stuff. Good form factor for the BMCC (or anything DSLR-sized) and built like a tank. Easily mountable between the camera and tripod, or any other rig. Definitely at bit out of your price range though. B&H has is offering $200 off until the end of June:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/846034-REG/Fostex_DC_R302_DC_R302_3_Channel_Audio_Mixer.html

I've heard some negative things about the quality of the digital preamp on the Tascam...

The issue is not the quality but the fact that the gain is stepped in 3dB increments, making smooth adjustments while recording impossible. There's talk of a firmware upgrade for this issue but certainly not in time for your trip.

Either way, have fun.....

Ah, that was it. Sorry, I'm NOT an audio guy at all. Not sure if that will effect my intended use tho...so maybe this is still the way to go? hmmm

The Sound Devices MM-1 could be an excellent solution. It features very high-quality sound:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/2 ... table.html

And a used Sennheiser ME-66:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... d_mic.html

Get a good wind-screen/muffler for the mic, too.

If you can find a used Sound Devices MixPre or MixPre-D (check Adorama, eBay, etc.), all the better. The MixPre-D is easier to mount on a camera/rig.

-

I've heard some negative things about the quality of the digital preamp on the Tascam...

If I could afford the $1500 for the AD071, I would probably just get the Sound Devices 302...

Has anyone heard of this Azden unit?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... Mixer.html

Hi Sean, it's me who's running the GB on the 'other' site

However, the AD071 is in a league above the SD IMO. I'm not just saying this because of the GB as I'm not even after one. Neither have I got anything against Sound Devices. I own a 744 and its done me proud.

I know you have a budget to stick to so I'd personally have a look at the used market before buying something you'd just replace as soon as you could.

Owen

And a used Sennheiser ME-66:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... d_mic.html

Get a good wind-screen/muffler for the mic, too.

-

Not a fan of the ME-66 personally. I'd go for a Rode NTG2 over that every time.

Agree with the wind protection though.

And a used Sennheiser ME-66:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/8 ... d_mic.html

Get a good wind-screen/muffler for the mic, too.

-

Not a fan of the ME-66 personally. I'd go for a Rode NTG2 over that every time.

Agree with the wind protection though.

Hi Owen: Good point about the Rode NTG2 vs. the ME-66.

I bet the Rode NTG2 and MM-1 would sound great together.

Is there another unit like the MM-1 that sounds as good or better, with similar features (high-quality input transformer, phantom power, built-in limiter, etc.), but costs less?

-

Is there another unit like the MM-1 that sounds as good or better, with similar features (high-quality input transformer, phantom power, built-in limiter, etc.), but costs less?

-

I've no idea to be honest Peter. There is the fostex FM-1, which is cheaper and from a company that was once renowned for their location kit. Never heard one tho. We have a lot of SQN mixers that are available used in the UK. SQN have been around for years, but make stuff to last. You can quite easily pick up a 3 channel for around the same price as the MM1. Really nice sounding preamps and built like tanks.


Owen

Weird...could have sworn one of my posts is missing..

Peter, thanks. I like the MM-1, but it has no meters.

I prefer the NGT1 to the NGT2...for a few reasons actually. Eventually, I will own both.

The Fostex unit is a TANK. I need smaller and more portable for this trip. I have a Marantz 661 recorder, I really want to avoid using an external recorder this time.

I found someone with a used SD MixPre-D for sale. $400. I'm hoping he hasn't sold it yet.

If that falls through, I will be getting the NGT1 w/dead cat (the best kind) with the Azden FMX-22. Guess I'll be one of the first to post a review of it.

I'll be saving my pennies and watching for group buys for a good system like the AD701 or SD 302!

Thanks for all the advice everyone, love this forum!

The Fostex unit is a TANK. I need smaller and more portable for this trip. I have a Marantz 661 recorder, I really want to avoid using an external recorder this time.

I'll be saving my pennies and watching for group buys for a good system like the AD701 or SD 302!

Thanks for all the advice everyone, love this forum!

Ha ha. I'd not seen the Fostex so couldn't comment on its girth

I'll send you a PM with details of the Audio Developments deal. I'm sure there will be further opportunities if this one is successful.

Have a good trip!

Owen

$800 Limit?

Tascam DR-100mkII - $329.99
NTG-2 Battery or Phantom Powered Condenser Shotgun Microphone - $269.00

That gives you $280 left over to buy rechargeable batteries, mounts, cables, wind protection, etc.

Don't bother buying expensive pre-amps for the BMC until the firmware is fixed. A DR-100 will give you better results currently.

Chris, I already have an external recorder. I don't want to bring it on this trip. I need on camera audio.

Ah, sorry - I missed your comments about owning a Marantz 661.

Make sure you do some tests before you commit to recording straight to camera.

Chances are you'll spend so much time fixing the on-camera audio, that it will actually be faster and easier to just record dual-system and use PluralEyes to sync things.

It's also worth doing some considering whether you go with the 1.2 firmware (DC Offset, Odd Gain Structure) or the 1.3 firmware (frequency attenuation, seems noisier in high frequencies). There are pros and cons of each, and which route you go with really depends on your post workflow.

The reason I suggested the DR-100 was because you could just take a line-out of the recorder, and record a guide track straight into the camera. It also has a remote control, so you can just mount the recorder to the top of the camera, set and forget.

The MixPre, Riggy, etc. are all fantastic little units. But until BMD fix their firmware, I still think a DR-100 (for example) sounds better.

It's all very well having a really fantastic microphone - but if the recording device is sub-par, you might as well just use a cheaper microphone that matches the quality of the end result.

Just take your camera into a local microphone retailer, and do some tests recording straight to camera.

But... If you're dead-set on recording straight to camera, and are aware that you'll need to do some heavy audio post work, then I'd go with:

Sound Devices MM-1 Single Channel Portable Microphone Preamp - $499.00
NTG-2 Battery or Phantom Powered Condenser Shotgun Microphone - $269.00

The only reason I would go with the MM-1 over the MP-1 is because the headphone output on the BMC is HORRIBLE. It's so noisy that if you were monitoring it all day, your brain would explode.

My 2c.

Have a great trip! Let me know if you end up in Melbourne at all!

The Fostex unit is a TANK. I need smaller and more portable for this trip. I have a Marantz 661 recorder, I really want to avoid using an external recorder this time.

I'll be saving my pennies and watching for group buys for a good system like the AD701 or SD 302!

Thanks for all the advice everyone, love this forum!

Ha ha. I'd not seen the Fostex so couldn't comment on its girth

I'll send you a PM with details of the Audio Developments deal. I'm sure there will be further opportunities if this one is successful.

Have a good trip!

Owen

I did see a new AD071 advertised on the web for just over $1,000 yesterday. I think it was a link when I did a web search so should be easy to find. That's already quite a bit off MSRP. Hope your group buy does better! I am interested but can't commit yet.

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The only reason I would go with the MM-1 over the MP-1 is because the headphone output on the BMC is HORRIBLE. It's so noisy that if you were monitoring it all day, your brain would explode.

You should always monitor from the last link in your chain, in this case the camera. If you don't you could get back off the shoot and have some nasty surprises, the audio could even not be there at all. That's why we need those meters in camera asap... to stop peoples heads from exploding

You should always monitor from the last link in your chain, in this case the camera.

Yes... you should. But have you actually tried it in the real world.

I always use a mixer, so I can easily switch between the mixer's monitor and the return feed from the camera to make sure the camera is still receiving a signal - but there's no way I could accurately monitor from the BMC's headphone output.

A meter won't fix the issue. The headphone output will still be terrible regardless.

My 2c.

I'd like the Juicedlink BM366...but it's not available yet. The Riggy micro and it don't have meters either though. So I would need the Riggy Assist, which has a 4 led meter, but the audio is apparently excellent. It would also mean I need a cheaper mic.

I got word, that the BM266 should come pretty soon, but it still may be too late for you.
In this case I would get the Riggy and rent a TVLogic monitor, that comes with VU meters, waveform, guides and all the bells and whistles you want.

Than you can plug in your NTG1 (get a dead cat) and you are fine.

Maybe you can even talk to Robert from JuicedLink, that you buy a Riggy now and swap it later for the BM366. He is a real nice guy, maybe he is willing to do that.

Frank

Yes... you should. But have you actually tried it in the real world.

I always use a mixer, so I can easily switch between the mixer's monitor and the return feed from the camera to make sure the camera is still receiving a signal - but there's no way I could accurately monitor from the BMC's headphone output.

A meter won't fix the issue. The headphone output will still be terrible regardless.

I'm sure you're right about the bmcc headphone out (still have to wait for mine to arrive)... all I was saying is if you had audio meters on the camera you could be sure that a signal was getting through to the camera. In that case you could probably monitor through headphones from the mixer. In any case if you're recording audio to the camera its probably best to record the audio separately as well for safety (which to be fair is what I think you are doing).

Actually, just thinking about it... if you had a spare channel in your mixer (e.g. if you were only recording from one mic), you could probably loop the headphone out into the spare input of the mixer for monitoring. Need to make sure it isn't going back to the camera though - you could get some freaky results .

Sean, I am currently using the new Tascam DR-60D with my BMCC, together with a Rode NTG-3.
I absolutely love that combination. The DR-60D runs with 4 AA batteries - I am using the latest Eneloop HR-3UWXB with 2.450 mAh. Runtime more than 3,5 h with Phantom power.

The Rode NTG-3 sounds so much better than the NTG-2/1, has less noise and a higher output level.

The DR-60D has 2 XLR inputs with Phantom power, camera IN and OUT, line OUT, limiter and 1 sec. pre-caching. And the amplifiers are very good, better than the older Tascams mentioned here.

What do you guys think about the new Zoom h6?
http://nofilmschool.com/2013/06/zooms-h ... rice-cost/

I'd like the Juicedlink BM366...but it's not available yet. The Riggy micro and it don't have meters either though. So I would need the Riggy Assist, which has a 4 led meter, but the audio is apparently excellent. It would also mean I need a cheaper mic.

I got word, that the BM266 should come pretty soon, but it still may be too late for you.
In this case I would get the Riggy and rent a TVLogic monitor, that comes with VU meters, waveform, guides and all the bells and whistles you want.

Than you can plug in your NTG1 (get a dead cat) and you are fine.

Maybe you can even talk to Robert from JuicedLink, that you buy a Riggy now and swap it later for the BM366. He is a real nice guy, maybe he is willing to do that.

Frank

Honestly Frank, the only reason I would consider buying a Juicedlink product...is because of your endorsement. I just find the lack of information and specs on the website, quite off-putting. The youtube videos are nice, but any manufacturer (of any product) will post marketing materials showing their product being superior. It's not enough. Why doesn't he display the specs of his hardware for comparison? I don't mind a one-man-show operation, but his website looks 1990s and that really is his introduction to potential customers. If you don't give a **** about having a professional "storefront", what else about your products do you not care about? ok, end of my juicedlink rant...

I already bought the azden. The used unit I was looking at was the older MixPre and she couldn't ship it to me fast enough. Right now, I plan to buy the SD MixPre-D in the near future. Hey, if it's good enough for Marco!

If BM comes out with meters, maybe I'll switch to the BM366...we'll see in Sept/Oct. I also need to invest in a proper mattebox...so I will prioritize after using this Azden for a couple months.

Robert, I really like the Tascam DR60. On paper, all the specs look perfect. It does everything I want a portable recorder to do. (except for the stepped gain) I have a Marantz661 right now. It's pretty good, but it's beastly. I might look into the new ZoomH6 in the future.

Need to wait to see how these things work once shipped. I've been an early adopter most of my life, but I've been burned a lot recently. So now I'm shifting my thought. Better to wait until after it ships and people have been using it to see all the issues or potential limitations. I still haven't used my BMCC on a paid shoot yet! I've run it in tandem with my 5D, then do double the workflow to get used to using it in a production environment. Pretty much there on the image side...need to get the audio sorted out now.

"I am currently using the new Tascam DR-60D with my BMCC, together with a Rode NTG-3.
…….
The Rode NTG-3 sounds so much better than the NTG-2/1, has less noise and a higher output level."

Hi Robert,
Thanks for that info. I am thinking of going with the Tascam DR-60 + NTG ? myself but budget won't allow the NTG-3. How bad was the NTG-2? Is there a way to fix the noise and output problem in post? Would you happen to know of a better mic than the NTG-2 for around US$300?

Actually, just thinking about it... if you had a spare channel in your mixer (e.g. if you were only recording from one mic), you could probably loop the headphone out into the spare input of the mixer for monitoring. Need to make sure it isn't going back to the camera though - you could get some freaky results .

Almost every professional mixer across the price spectrum has a dedicated monitoring bus. A supposedly professional mixer that does NOT have a monitoring bus on it would probably be a mareket non-starter.

Products that are designed around using the camera's headphone outs for monitoring, and therefore don't have their own monitoring bus such as the JuicedLink preamps are not mixers... that's why they're described as preamps instead.

Thanks for that info. I am thinking of going with the Tascam DR-60 + NTG ? myself but budget won't allow the NTG-3. How bad was the NTG-2? Is there a way to fix the noise and output problem in post? Would you happen to know of a better mic than the NTG-2 for around US$300?

I use an NTG-2 a fair bit, with a MixPre-D and usually in a two-system configuration. I did record directly on camera once with that combination, and the results have been good... but part of that is due to the fact that with a MixPre-D you can add as much gain as you need, pretty much.

And no, I don't think you'll find a better mic than an NTG-2 for $300. I'm frankly amazed by the sound of the NTG-2 in light of its price, though using a MixPre-D is cheating a bit.

Thanks for your response!
Sounds like NTG-2 is the way to go. Did you have to push the gain a lot?
it looks like people have had some problem with that.
The Tascam R-60D can push +26dB( if understand correctly). Do you think that is enough? MixPre-D looks sweet but too much for my budget…
Cheers

Actually, just thinking about it... if you had a spare channel in your mixer (e.g. if you were only recording from one mic), you could probably loop the headphone out into the spare input of the mixer for monitoring. Need to make sure it isn't going back to the camera though - you could get some freaky results :lol:.

Almost every professional mixer across the price spectrum has a dedicated monitoring bus. A supposedly professional mixer that does NOT have a monitoring bus on it would probably be a mareket non-starter.

Products that are designed around using the camera's headphone outs for monitoring, and therefore don't have their own monitoring bus such as the JuicedLink preamps are not mixers... that's why they're described as preamps instead.

Just for the record, I never wrote that...

I'm currently using either the 302 or 552 with the BMC - so yes, I always have access to a return feed.

"I am currently using the new Tascam DR-60D with my BMCC, together with a Rode NTG-3.
…….
The Rode NTG-3 sounds so much better than the NTG-2/1, has less noise and a higher output level."

Hi Robert,
Thanks for that info. I am thinking of going with the Tascam DR-60 + NTG ? myself but budget won't allow the NTG-3. How bad was the NTG-2? Is there a way to fix the noise and output problem in post? Would you happen to know of a better mic than the NTG-2 for around US$300?

Well, the NTG-2 is surely a nice mic, to me it just lacks a bit in the low frequencies. The NTG-3 sounds richer, I really love it's sound. If you can afford it, go for the NTG-3, but there is nothing wrong with the NTG-2 if your budget is lower.