New camera announcements will be made on July 16

This is the face of a child who has been banned from every playground. Nobody gives him any early info anymore, no manufacturer in their right mind.

Sorry but like it or not, reframing in post is a very common practice now, regardless of who the DP is or if they're happy or not with the idea of doing it.

Fair enough Michael. Not that you need 12K to do reframing.

True, but their will be lots of bods looking at this seriously.

Hope DNGs from older cameras will support Color Science Gen 5

Wayne's been telling us they have 12K chips for cell phones forever... I don't know why anyone is surprised.

They are moving to 16k in phones this year or next.

That's not how dynamic range works. There's no shadow or highlight dynamic range. You just have dynamic range, your curves, and your middle grey point. Bring the middle grey point up gives the impression of pulling more detail from the highlights and bringing it down appears to bring up more detail in the shadows.

That's what how the ISO works on all the BMD cameras except the Pocket 4K/6K which have two analog ISO ranges where it works like that and then the higher ones are analog gain.

Yes, I know that.

I'll "technically correct" my post. I meant above middle grey. Sure, you can have 20 stops below middle gray but when you boost those up, you're typically losing color saturation, sometimes there are shifts in color, sometimes colors get distorted, some of it's noisy, etc.

Sure, if you scale down to 8K or 6K, you might get more dynamic range in the shadow areas since the noise might be less, but that's not as noticeable, if at all, as having stops above middle grey. But it might be. If you can shoot clean footage at 2000 ISO on an 800 camera, and you set your middle grey accordingly, you've shifted the dynamic range distribution and you might have more in the highlights, but then how much overall contrast, saturation, and overall midtone contrast do you lose?

It's not linear across the whole exposure range. That's why I personally prefer a bunch of stops above middle grey than what many cameras offer. I think that's more important. That's just my opinion though.

I wasn't exited about any resolution higher than 4k until he showed how easy it is to edit 12k BRAW on a laptop.
Are we finally getting the camera that can do everything: HD, 4k, 6k, 8k, 12k, and high mega pixel stills without compromises?

Lol! All the people who harrasserd, who should have had dozens of warnings, about all sorts of things including editing even 8K on PC's, 12k on a laptop, enough said!

I wasn't exited about any resolution higher than 4k until he showed how easy it is to edit 12k BRAW on a laptop.
Are we finally getting the camera that can do everything: HD, 4k, 6k, 8k, 12k, and high mega pixel stills without compromises?

Lol! All the people who harrasserd, who should have had dozens of warnings, about all sorts of things including editing even 8K on PC's, 12k on a laptop, enough said!

Everyone needs to give Wayne an apology...

Now, can I have the "12k" logo in "Red".

Beaten to it. An iMax camera.

I wasn't exited about any resolution higher than 4k until he showed how easy it is to edit 12k BRAW on a laptop.
Are we finally getting the camera that can do everything: HD, 4k, 6k, 8k, 12k, and high mega pixel stills without compromises?

Lol! All the people who harrasserd, who should have had dozens of warnings, about all sorts of things including editing even 8K on PC's, 12k on a laptop, enough said!

Everyone seriously needs to give Wayne an apology... Perhaps you'll appreciate his insights much more after today.

But what if you are Roger Deakins and you want to be able to reframe in post? Whether technological advances add or take-away control is a workflow issue, not a technology issue.

You need to subscribe to Deakins post and read what he thinks of reframing... in a nutshell, you won't be working for him.

Why as the DP shouldn't I have that choice?

I didn't say you shouldn't have that choice. I said you have to use it sparingly - so not your first choice.

What if I frame exactly as I want and a boom drops into an otherwise perfect shot?

Do another take. No brainer.

What if I'm the director and cinematographer and I'm wrong on the day?

That's your problem. Reframing should not be your answer. Do it right the next day or don't come back.

What if punching in on the actresses face for that moment would have been a better choice?

That's why you do multiple takes with multiple angles. Don't let laziness overcome your judgement.

You live in a magical world where everyone always notices every problem on set and always has the time and budget to reshoot.

In the real world, even a production like GoT lets a Starbucks cup or a pickup sneak into a shot.

You live in a magical world where everyone always notices every problem on set and always has the time and budget to reshoot.

In the real world, even a production like GoT lets a Starbucks cup or a pickup sneak into a shot.

The movies are magical worlds - otherwise it won't be worth doing. You must hate your job or need to learn how to yoga or something to relieve those stress from not having enough money to do things even like simple reshoots. BTW, if you don't have the budget to reshoot, plan your shoot and do it right the first time for Christ sake.

This is the face of a child who has been banned from every playground. Nobody gives him any early info anymore, no manufacturer in their right mind.

I don't mind Andrew. But that clip was hard to follow here, too rushed in subtitles viewing from the phone.

The UM12k is not for me. I'm sure its will be very good but for £8k its not FF Vista Vision, its 14 stops, there is no IBIS, no advance AF. This is not really an operator camera but belongs to a production company with a crew to operate. A crew environment is diminishing as production companies are downsizing or shutting down especially post Covid.

I have a feeling this is the successor of the Big Ursa. It won't sell many.

I have a feeling this is the successor of the Big Ursa. It won't sell many.

+1000

I have a feeling this is the successor of the Big Ursa. It won't sell many.

+1000

How ridiculous.

This is the flagship. Until who knows when. All they'll do is update firmware.

They could use the same sensor for all the cameras and limit resolution, framerates, or whatever else they come up with in the future...

The sensor is the achievement. The camera body that it's in means nothing.

You live in a magical world where everyone always notices every problem on set and always has the time and budget to reshoot.

In the real world, even a production like GoT lets a Starbucks cup or a pickup sneak into a shot.

The movies are magical worlds - otherwise it won't be worth doing. You must hate your job or need to learn how to yoga or something to relieve those stress from not having enough money to do things even like simple reshoots. BTW, if you don't have the budget to reshoot, plan your shoot and do it right the first time for Christ sake.

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dy ... 845892.jpg

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/ ... ighter.jpg

Yup, the problem is definitely me and a lack of yoga.

The UM12k is not for me. I'm sure its will be very good but for £8k its not FF Vista Vision, its 14 stops, there is no IBIS, no advance AF. This is not really an operator camera but belongs to a production company with a crew to operate. A crew environment is diminishing as production companies are downsizing or shutting down especially post Covid.

There's some truth to this. At the very least, it's bucking the trend towards more operator friendly cameras.

Even a year ago I would have dismissed the desire for AFC on a professional filmmaker's camera, but it's hard to deny the usefulness of Canon's implementation. If we're honest with ourselves, it can replace a focus puller for the majority of simple shots, which are the majority of shots.

IBIS is the other feature that is getting harder and harder to ignore. As someone who loves to have a camera on my shoulder, I find myself peeking over the fence at the R5 wishing it didn't overheat if you use it outside of an icebox.

The UM12k is not for me. I'm sure its will be very good but for £8k its not FF Vista Vision, its 14 stops, there is no IBIS, no advance AF. This is not really an operator camera but belongs to a production company with a crew to operate. A crew environment is diminishing as production companies are downsizing or shutting down especially post Covid.

I have a feeling this is the successor of the Big Ursa. It won't sell many.

High end cinema cameras dont have af nor ibis and this is where the ursa 12k will thirve. In those realms they have crews for everything. If you want that go for the sony f9 or the canon c500. More expensive but you get what you need. Don't suffer this camera is not for us, yet.

Ricardo Marty

For me,my he biggest advantage of this sensor is that you get an image that going to be as close to film as is possible, more so than any other digital camera out there. This one moves us one step closer to closing the image quality gap between film and digital photography. Put this sensor in a still camera form factor, set it up for still photography and I can stop shooting film, I can get the same quality from this. A nicely balanced, smooth looking image with out the artifacts inherent in pervious sensor technology.

For Cinematography it solves a lot of the issues of a Bayer sensor, with a more natural looking image. I do not need a big camera like the Ursa Mini anymore. But when this new sensor trickles down to a Pocket 4K or a large Micro Mini size gory (similar to the Hasselblad), I will be the first in one line to get it.
Cheers

I don’t plan on buy this camera right now, but man we will all benefit from Gen 5 color science.
For real, guys... it’s really nice!

Such a shame as I was hoping to stay in the BM eco system. Yes its a great camera but its not for me.
There are now quite a few alternatives with better features, sort of hoped BM would have an answer to.

Alex.

IBIS is the other feature that is getting harder and harder to ignore. As someone who loves to have a camera on my shoulder, I find myself peeking over the fence at the R5 wishing it didn't overheat if you use it outside of an icebox.

If you shoot in 12K you can hand hold on a galloping horse crank the stabilizer to 11 in post and still have enough pixels to deliver in 2k. Heck you don't even need to have the camera pointed in the right direction at that resolution. While it is nice to say Roger Deakins this and that, lots of people don't have the budget RD has to play with. The list on this bad boy is only 3 or 4 Gs above what the G2 is going for. If I can skip renting a car mounted steady cam and operator one time and cheat it in post I have probably just paid for the upgrade. From time to time I shoot stuff in places where getting it perfect in camera just isn't an option at any price.

Having said that I am very open to the possibility that resolution isn't the big feature of this camera. Like most when I first looked at this I was thinking 12K that's just a lot of fapping but the more I chew on every thing in this camera has going for it over the G2 the better a deal it seams. But looking at real footage rather than footage squeezed to work for a live stream will tell the real story.

I don't think that would be it (as far as mount/sensor) because the m43 mount / lenses would cause vignetting so they wouldn't sell a product straight out of the box that makes unusable images.

Could it be possible to have some magic built in similar to what JVC has done, enabling the sensor and M43 mount to utilize various lens formats by image scaling on the sensor?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Why cant John Brawley or Captain Hook do one of those camera announcement live stream presentation instead of the CEO for a change?

No, please not! Grants announcements are classic...

Yeah, because I'm intrigued by the way Grant twitches his shoulders as an adverse response to sensing his armpit hairs -- just as I do! Yes, I'm serious.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Does anybody know the reason why Grant twitches his shoulder? Is that a sign of excitement or nervousness? It was pretty bad today. Hope everything is good with him and his health. He is a good visionary guy.

But looking at real footage rather than footage squeezed to work for a live stream will tell the real story.

More coming soon



JB

Oh, yeah, pixel peeping test!

Hey, where did the pixels go!

The UM12k is not for me. I'm sure its will be very good but for £8k its not FF Vista Vision, its 14 stops, there is no IBIS, no advance AF. This is not really an operator camera but belongs to a production company with a crew to operate. A crew environment is diminishing as production companies are downsizing or shutting down especially post Covid.

There's some truth to this. At the very least, it's bucking the trend towards more operator friendly cameras.

Even a year ago I would have dismissed the desire for AFC on a professional filmmaker's camera, but it's hard to deny the usefulness of Canon's implementation. If we're honest with ourselves, it can replace a focus puller for the majority of simple shots, which are the majority of shots.

IBIS is the other feature that is getting harder and harder to ignore. As someone who loves to have a camera on my shoulder, I find myself peeking over the fence at the R5 wishing it didn't overheat if you use it outside of an icebox.

I didn't have trouble seeing it. For single operator a push to auto can get you quickly there, and on narrative, get you close then you can fine adjust. And 4+ phase pixel technogy is out by Sony, for better auto focus quicker I think, which I am hoping for in a pocket. But, over 20 years ago, I figured out what was needed in the job in studio and 15 years ago in feild. You can set to track where focus is, and now focus dynamics to focus by. You can set start and end points and now travel dynamics, for a scene. Now, we could do an AI version but computational multipoint imaging gets post adjustments and repeats on that and emulation of virtually any lens on an array package diameter just a little more than up to the diameter of the emulated lens, at less than 1cm deep. You can dump most of your lens package. My effort was to figure out how to get as close to one person crew as possible. I figured out that if a person was good enough, only the director operator is needed, but hardly anybody us that good. The industry is still playing catch up again. I could still slash studio or feild costs drastically.

IBIS is the other feature that is getting harder and harder to ignore. As someone who loves to have a camera on my shoulder, I find myself peeking over the fence at the R5 wishing it didn't overheat if you use it outside of an icebox.

If you shoot in 12K you can hand hold on a galloping horse crank the stabilizer to 11 in post and still have enough pixels to deliver in 2k. Heck you don't even need to have the camera pointed in the right direction at that resolution. While it is nice to say Roger Deakins this and that, lots of people don't have the budget RD has to play with. The list on this bad boy is only 3 or 4 Gs above what the G2 is going for. If I can skip renting a car mounted steady cam and operator one time and cheat it in post I have probably just paid for the upgrade. From time to time I shoot stuff in places where getting it perfect in camera just isn't an option at any price.

Having said that I am very open to the possibility that resolution isn't the big feature of this camera. Like most when I first looked at this I was thinking 12K that's just a lot of fapping but the more I chew on every thing in this camera has going for it over the G2 the better a deal it seams. But looking at real footage rather than footage squeezed to work for a live stream will tell the real story.

As John could also tell you, you'll have to spend extra time post processing out the motion blur of the horse gallop at this stage of technology, as violent movements are going induce blur and pixel shift. Another solution is to use very sharp shutters and recalculate I'm motion blur. Double or more framing is good too, except it won't support top high of frame rate at 12k. The very fast shutter reduces shifts that broad daylight is probably helpful for, ot very low noise sensitive sensor might handle in less ideal lighting conditions. You still might need to post process the blur and shifts, I don't have the figures to calculate. The multi frame just helps you track movements for construction of the frame, but 12k gets you a long way there. Now, I suppose we are going have guys running about with there $15k packages testing it out, hopefully not tripping. But you have a good point, as a lot of stuff is safer, like in cars, walking. But people really need to have people see and feel the image on set, to make sure it's ok and nothing is in the jerky image that's wrong. But, apart from dessicated betes to each part of the image, they didn't have that in film days, but then they weren't attempting perfecting extreme stabilisationss. Fun days ahead.

Fine shifts and blurs, might actually be a good narrative device to indicate violent action and speed in an action sequence of a car or rider. I think in our own stabilised vision, we are used to this, though not many may experience it much at all. But, it is the feeling of the motion of movement we are trying to put in.

Now, where are all the people who argued against this all in personal attacks on logic, now arguing hounding with BM and Grant on this, in everyway, who shouldn't been allowed to?? How come I don't see dozens of warnings on each of them by now?



This next technology Rodeo has a long way to go for decades, better get used to it. Film making might look more like producing holodeck productions in the generation after. In the meantime, present film making will change, and sure enough, Tarantino might still produce a film stock feature at the end of it, on people trying to produce a film stock feature in a digital age, with gang money, or some such thing.

IBIS is the other feature that is getting harder and harder to ignore. As someone who loves to have a camera on my shoulder, I find myself peeking over the fence at the R5 wishing it didn't overheat if you use it outside of an icebox.

If you shoot in 12K you can hand hold on a galloping horse crank the stabilizer to 11 in post and still have enough pixels to deliver in 2k.

Only if you crank your shutter speed ridiculously high or want a blurry mess. Just ask the Stead-XP guys.

UM12k feels to me like it has lots of brawn but lacking in brain. Its very Arnold Schwarzenegger but I need Jackie Chan. The trend is more Jackie and less Arnie these days if you know what I mean.
It also reminds me of the USS Zumwalt. There were great plans for it, percieved cutting edge but it did not fit the purpose of the client it was designed for.

As for R5 overheating. Someone use an insulin ice pack strapped to the back of his Fuji camera to more than double the recording time that also use to cut out at 20 mins because of overheat. There is hope.

The resolution in total harmony with the RGB sensor are the magic words here.
It’s not a new world that opens but a parallel one to what we are used to see.

It will take a little while but then everything will fall into place for the market to actually understand its possibilities.

Yeah, I think the "We designed our own sensor" was the big takeaway for me from this. A sensor that does all resolutions with balanced RGB as well! And I think Grant said that it used less power in lower res modes? Fantastic news and points to a really interesting future. Throw in the new colour science, and BRAW, making this a very significant announcement.

Steve

CaptainHook has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Measuring rolling shutter:

***************
Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update
***************

The only “kind of” a let down I see is the path to using CFast cards instead of CFexpress.
But I believe most will use external drives anyway and cards for backup only.

Maybe CFexpress came too late to the game to be used. So with a small developer team like BMD does have, you don't change technology easily after you have settled for a path.

I hope, BMD will release an intresting camera next year...they missed the market with this one...

CaptainHook has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Measuring rolling shutter:

Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update
***************

Wow, the 4K crop for example handily crushes the other BMD cameras. The UMP4.6K G2 is in the ballpark but still significantly longer times.

Has anyone seen a detailed article on the new sensor? Grant conveyed the gist of it, but I was hoping their webpage would provide further information about how it’s managed? And is it patented?

Is it simply:
RGBRGB
RGBRGB
RGBRGB?

Or something like:
RGBRGB
GBRGBR
BRGBRG?

Maybe the chip they use doesn't have capacity to put express card/performance in.

An actual 4-8k pocket using this chip for higher res stills would be a great consumer product. In a thread, somebody was complaining black magic products were getting sold through Target department stores in the US. I wondered if they were going to produce a new pocket into that space. This chip might make a reasonable camera.

However, seeing a picture of grant about to grab the camera, I thought it was so small and cute. Smaller than I thought. I was getting so sick the other week, I had thought that anything bigger than a small phone was too big for me. I feel better and bigger cameras are more handible, just because I can handle more weight handheld. Prosumer camcorder sized

Rick,

Half the pixels are clear. I wished it had tried the random colir pattern, which was designed to be superior to Bayer, and is really a concentric diamond (rotated square) pattern, from memory.

Just remembered, saw John's graded sample clip on line, and the camera seems to need a few more stops of latitude and low light, going on how it rendered the darker people there. Maybe it is a grading thing again. But, many of the less challenging shots were pretty good. It seemed to handle bright areas reasonably, but a couple extra stops would help.

Ok, fun time. A 12k resolve grading target. Will it work? :

People are impressed it will display and scrub on an old laptop, but remembering a thread of somebody who had delved into how Braw worked, he found rendering modes 1/4 or 1/8th resolution. So, as along as when you stop video it rerenders the frame stopped on in full resolution, you can see what's happening on pause.

Alright, I didn’t notice BMD mention half the photosites are clear. So that will help with the luminosity value and give them perhaps an extra stop of ISO I suppose. Random might look a bit more like film grain but it’s never going to be really random like depositing chemicals.

R-G-B-
R-G-B-
R-G-B-
R-G-B-

or

R-G-B-
-G-B-R
G-B-R-
-B-R-G

Like Kim says Rick.

No, random looks totally non random, but was supposed to be better. It's regularity probably interacts with different things then regular things Bayer has problems with. So, probably, irregular rather than random, to regular image features resulting in less issues.

Wayne, so a column of green, column of red, column of blue with the clear and coloured photosites staggered.

Whatever it is, it’s the kind of thing that seems so obvious why wasn’t everyone doing this!? RbGbBb. Or however it’s represented.

Like most breakthroughs in science, they’re brilliant but also simple. The most beautiful math is the simplest math that expresses astounding ideas:
e=mc2.

Only a few of you got the real important point:

ITS A NEW TECH.

New sensor technology, proprietary, not bayer anymore.
As usual, most only focus on the Ks (the old problem of having the bigger stick). Silly.

And for those saying "its not for me", "BMD missed the market", you didnt listen the very first thing Grant said: ITS FOR THE VERY HIGH END. Are you in the very high end? Are you even in the high end?

Geez, guys. Pay better attention to things.

Rick, vertical stripe has issues, I think staggered, but could be grouping and clear pixels around or something else. Staggered are probably not the best either, that's why the random solution was interesting. But, this is down rezing format, so at 2k-6k it might be fine. At 8k, it might be well. But at under normal viewing 8k pixels get merged in colour in particular, so it might not matter. I once thought of the possibility of doing an 8k Bayer camera without debayering, as the pixels are so small they fall under the colour resolution of human vision by at least half, so a 4 pixel Bayer block falls within the maximum colour area resolution of human vision.

But it is more complex than that. During my testing nearly a quarter of a century ago, I found that colour would merge a lot lower, but it's about how fine of am area you can detect. So through various means, you detect a lot less. Your vision is capable of detecting objects of maybe magnitudes smaller than an atom, if it's vibrant enough. I'm talking about photons. So, even your standard definition camera, csnbdecrs human hair in the 20-50 micron range, just from a bright light in a night interview glowing through it on the dark back ground.

Honestly, I couldn’t care less about 12K. What I really want is greater dynamic range and higher frame rates in the existing cameras, including the BMPCC 4K & 6K. According to BM’s advertising, they’ve lost one f-stop of dynamic range/latitude in the new 12K camera as compared to the Ursa Mini Pro 4.6 K. When you’re shooting on location, the more latitude the better. I’ll also second someone’s comment about improving the IR filter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who knows. The dynamic range could even be more, just by changing the way it's measured insisting virtually no noise. This could even be a high end measurement with a lot less noise eating into dynamic range shifting the dynamic range. John would know from using it.