New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

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javier forza

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New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 3:55 pm

15 Stops Dinamic Range.
Stabilization.
16 bits Raw External Recording.
10 bits Internal 4.2.2
Autofocus.

https://www.sony.com/electronics/interc ... ifications

Enjoy!
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Mark Wyatt

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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 4:30 pm

The new standard...for undesirable color?
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jallen0

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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 4:38 pm

It also doesn't look like there is a tentacle sync input option either. So, no timecode jam sync.

What I kind of do like about it is that it keep Canon and Sony in the same battlefield. Leaving BMD a great opportunity in the next 12-18 months.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 6:57 pm

This is Sony's own comparison against the 6K

Fullframe or Super 35mm; that's your sensor choice.
The a7S III has a larger, lowerresolution 12MP full-frame sensor that is better in low light. The Pocket 6K's Super 35mm sensor offers more resolution.
The a7S III's mirrorless body has a few advantages: advanced autofocus, inbody image stabilization, a high-res EVF, and more.
The Pocket 6K, being built for video alone, has 12bit internal raw recording up to 6K and 10-bit 4K recording in ProRes up to 60p. Both are incredible specs.
Add on a timecode input and USBC for recording to external SSDs and you have a very capable compact cinema system.
The a7S III doesn't have the same resolutions, but has faster 4K at up to 120p while keeping 10bit 4:2:2 in various compressed formats.
The a7S III excels in lowlight performance by multiple stops.
Blackmagic offers Dual Native ISO to boost lowlight performance.
Sony's claimed dynamic range of 15+ stops beats Blackmagic's claim of 13 stops.
Sony uses the more versatile Sony E mount, which can accept adapted lenses from almost any system, while the Pocket 6K uses the more common Canon EF mount.
Final Thoughts: I would honestly give the win to the a7S III if I was picking a straight-up winner right now. The full-frame sensor offers plenty of advantages, and Sony has some very useful additions (IBIS and AF) that make video shooting a more enjoyable experience. Its 4K should also be noticeably better. Blackmagic still offers a lot, in a smaller, more affordable package as expected. The Pocket 6K is an incredibly powerful filmmaking tool, and if you are a fan of Blackmagic's systems or want internal raw it makes sense for the price. It also is a better B camera to other Blackmagic cameras, such as the URSA.
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pnguyen720

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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 7:02 pm

No anamorphic on either the Sony or Canon though? No bueno.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 7:03 pm

Mark Wyatt wrote:The new standard...for undesirable color?

The out-of-the-box color is greatly improved on the a7S III. Sony's A7whatever video color has always been bad, but this camera's default color is most definitely more comparable to their "pro" video and cinema cameras.

This is the first Sony I'm considering in a very long time.
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Eugenia Loli

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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 7:33 pm

For a more serious filmmaker, the Sony A7S III is a better camera than the Canon R5/R6. Its IBIS and AF are NOT as good as Canon's, but everything else pretty much is: from better HDMI port, to better battery life, to not overheating, to making proxies automatically, to more codec variations, better low light, more fps etc. And the new slog2 has improved color btw. The Canons are better cameras for point and shoot. If that's what someone wants (and I did, since I pre-ordered the R6), they're great. But if you want to shoot, let's say, a narrative, or a music video, then ibis (that abruptly jumps all too often in video mode), and AF (that you can trust most of the time, but not always) become less important. And the fact that they overheat, make them a no-no for serious productions.

So I'd say, if you're serious about telling a story, get a Sony. If you want a hybrid camera that also shoots nice video in small bursts, get a Canon. If you can't afford any of these but you want to shoot something seriously and on a budget, get a BMPCC 4k.

And if you can't afford that either, get an EOS M on eBay for $150 with a 7Artisans 25mm f/1.8 manual lens, variable ND, and a tripod, and you're set for less than $300. Best starting kit for new filmmakers who are still learning.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 8:24 pm

I wouldn’t consider the new Sony A7SIII to be a new standard. If I was choosing photography stills I’d go with the A7RIV first because higher megapixel count and great dynamic range. It’s just shy of the DXOMark scores of the Nikon D850 and then even a Hasselblad. So for stills I wouldn’t choose the A7SIII.

For video… well, no. Not the new standard by any means. Others have given good reasons above. For me I’d choose any a Blackmagic camera first. Even Sony’s cinema camera lineup is better.


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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 8:43 pm

Eugenia Loli wrote:So I'd say, if you're serious about telling a story, get a Sony. If you want a hybrid camera that also shoots nice video in small bursts, get a Canon. If you can't afford any of these but you want to shoot something seriously and on a budget, get a BMPCC 4k.


I would disagree with this statement in that when comparing price point to price point you get more options with a BMD 4K camera rigged out then the new Sony camera. The final product is what matters. I would also argue that for the $4,000 Sony price you can get a 6K camera partially rigged out and do better as well.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 10:01 pm

I personally prefer the 4k to the 6k, because I can use a speedbooster and more kinds of lenses. Second, for many of us, there is value to have a camera that can do a lot of things. So while the BMD cameras do the cinema things well, they don't do AF and IBIS or have a good battery life. They still require rigging that make them heavy. Someone like me, who's just 4'11", and doesn't have much strength due to chronic illness, they're a deal breaker in a lot of ways. After a quick stab with my full rig (which I did put together), and failing to hold and focus at the same time for more than 3 minutes, I now use my BMPCC 4k only on a tripod. So it's my tripod camera. That's it. That's why for ME, a hybrid camera that is as close as possible to a cinema camera in terms of software features is more valuable than an outright cinema camera. And that's why I bought the R6.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 10:40 pm

So, when hybrids offer good to great codecs and raw recording, what's left to make something a "cinema" camera? The form factor? Well, how the hairy heck is the bulbous bastard that is the "Pocket" 4K / 6K body more "cinematic" than a DSLR?

Manual focus? Really? The lack of a feature?

There was a time not so very long ago that no serious still photographer would be caught dead using autofocus. Then, slowly, it became virtually the only way to shoot. There are only a very few specialty situations that would ever call for manual focus.

Today, no serious filmmaker would be caught dead using autofocus...but you can see where I'm going.

The truth is that the majority of the time, for the majority of shots, in the majority of movies, Sony or Canon's current state of the art autofocusing does the job. Well. And RED is furiously working to gift the Komodo with similar capability. When you watch a demo of "racking" focus on the A7S III, you're not being objective if you don't think it looks as good as most manual racks.

12K isn't going to get me to buy a new camera, because it won't help me make a better movie. But knowing that I can confidently hit focus by tapping what I want to focus on just might.

Without the processing power and sensor tech (phase detection) to do so, I worry that BM cameras risk being left behind in this inevitable shift.
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Eugenia Loli

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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 11:10 pm

Joe, I agree with you 100%! As I wrote in another thread, I used my Canon M50's DPAF (which is not nearly as good as the new DPAF II on the R5/R6), to shoot a narrative short film. While I had access to my BMPCC 4k (and even a Fuji GFX 100 medium format camera), I still used the 1080p M50 due to its AF abilities. It made my life much easier, since I had to juggle a lot of things on the set. If it wasn't for the M50, I might not have even tried to shoot this film. I used its AF for 90% of the shots, and it maintained focus for all of them.

And I also agree that BMD needs to get with the times: large sensors, IBIS, integrated low power electronics (BMD should had bought Olympus' new Vietnam factory), AI-assisted AF. BMD needs to make a decision if it wants to go with the RF mount, or the L mount, and build from there the future. But 12k does not interest me. Just like R5's 8k doesn't.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 11:22 pm

Eugenia Loli wrote:Joe, I agree with you 100%! As I wrote in another thread, I used my Canon M50's DPAF (which is not nearly as good as the new DPAF II on the R5/R6), to shoot a narrative short film. While I had access to my BMPCC 4k (and even a Fuji GFX 100 medium format camera), I still used the 1080p M50 due to its AF abilities. It made my life much easier, since I had to juggle a lot of things on the set. If it wasn't for the M50, I might not have even tried to shoot this film. I used its AF for 90% of the shots, and it maintained focus for all of them.

And I also agree that BMD needs to get with the times: large sensors, IBIS, integrated low power electronics (BMD should had bought Olympus' new Vietnam factory), AI-assisted AF. BMD needs to make a decision if it wants to go with the RF mount, or the L mount, and build from there the future. But 12k does not interest me. Just like R5's 8k doesn't.

If the R5 did not overheat the way it does, and if it's RAW codec wasn't such a heavy beast, it would be in my shopping cart. It would have been the "good enough" hybrid camera I've been waiting for that I could see using for years for everything I do.

The A7S III gets the video features, but the resolution is just too low to be my stills camera.

Fingers crossed for the Panasonic GH6.


We're so,so, so close to the "good enough"
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostTue Jul 28, 2020 11:32 pm

BTW, I saw that the A7S III has some of the right options: 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 in h.265 10bit. GPUs don't support decoding 4:2:2 in that mode, so all the work goes to the CPU, which struggles (even on speedy computers, it does about 1 fps). At 4:2:0, GPUs fly though. Unfortunately, the Canon cameras don't offer us a 4:2:0 option. It's esoteric details like these that Sony got 100% right today. And the large HDMI too (what was Canon thinking of going from miniHDMI to microHDMI? I don't know!).
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 5:00 am

This idea of comparing BMD cameras to Sony/Canon cameras in a non-narrative category is getting boring. All cameras have their strengths and weaknesses. BMD have duly named most of their cameras "cinema cameras", and it's a fact that cinema cameras are not equipped with AF. The myriads of narratives since time, were all shot on cinema cameras with no AF. As a matter of fact, serious cinematographers wouldn't want anything to do with AF. What I believe deserves a mention in this conversation is BMD's broadcast and production cameras, and why the latter for instance didn't have AF.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 6:34 am

The A7SIII also overheat but not as bad as the R5 and R6 for a couple of reasons, Its not using 8k or supersampling of 8k to 4k. Also there is vent for air to escape so not quite weather seal. R5 can deliver better video using 8k and supersampling 4k upto 30fps while ASIII has better quality in 4k/120, both pretty even at 60fps.
Clearly Sony played safe. The support from Atomos for ProresRaw actually swings it for me at the moment for video but I feel the R5 will be getting a FW update with compress Raw and C Log 3. There is also a rumour of a new EF to RF adapter with air vent. In the end because I need a new stills camera for my EF lens the R5 make more sense.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 6:40 am

Art Roberts wrote:This idea of comparing BMD cameras to Sony/Canon cameras in a non-narrative category is getting boring. All cameras have their strengths and weaknesses. BMD have duly named most of their cameras "cinema cameras", and it's a fact that cinema cameras are not equipped with AF. The myriads of narratives since time, were all shot on cinema cameras with no AF. As a matter of fact, serious cinematographers wouldn't want anything to do with AF. What I believe deserves a mention in this conversation is BMD's broadcast and production cameras, and why the latter for instance didn't have AF.


That because AF has been crappy and cause all kinds of problem until recently. When technology improves it becames part of the professional feature. Same with in camera memory card formatting that actually optimises the card performance. If you are not working in a crewed envionment a good AF is a necessity. RED Komodo has adopted good AF.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 6:43 am

joe12south wrote:12K isn't going to get me to buy a new camera, because it won't help me make a better movie. But knowing that I can confidently hit focus by tapping what I want to focus on just might.

Without the processing power and sensor tech (phase detection) to do so, I worry that BM cameras risk being left behind in this inevitable shift.


I mean nothing will help you make a better movie by that measure. You could still be shooting happily on a 720p/1080i camera, or not owning a camera at all if making a better movie was the concern. You'd be out raising millions or acquiring adequate contacts to make a better movie with better actors, better locations, etc. Moving from whatever you have now to an A7 whatever won’t have any effect on the core of any you want to tell, just how you present it.

Also... who said BMD cameras don’t have “sensor tech” to do that? Did anyone from
BMD say that? Link me.
Last edited by Kholi Hicks on Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 6:48 am

Eugenia Loli wrote: And the large HDMI too (what was Canon thinking of going from miniHDMI to microHDMI? I don't know!).


Blackmagic also has a full size HDMI on their BMPCC4k/6k but then not utilise it for Raw output and limit it to just 1080p.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 7:46 am

WahWay wrote:R5 can deliver better video using 8k and supersampling 4k upto 30fps while ASIII has better quality in 4k/120, both pretty even at 60fps.
Clearly Sony played safe.
with a 12mp sensor it's easier to deliver better rolling shutter performance which is a major issue anytime you have motion in the frame or the camera - Sony played it smart.....
Which is what I said, and even though this is what I was talking about, there is not too much comparison between your actions at the moment compared to some not around here.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 9:42 am

John Griffin wrote:
WahWay wrote:R5 can deliver better video using 8k and supersampling 4k upto 30fps while ASIII has better quality in 4k/120, both pretty even at 60fps.
Clearly Sony played safe.
with a 12mp sensor it's easier to deliver better rolling shutter performance which is a major issue anytime you have motion in the frame or the camera - Sony played it smart.....


I would'nt say smart, just safe. If I was after a stills camera this definately would not be on my list. Would I pay £3.5k just purely for the video ability? I'm not sure.

I checked out a few videos. DR is not 15+ stops, I would say less DR than BMPCC4k but maybe all the grades are a bit crap so far. The colour is a bit wacky very consumer like.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 10:58 am

The DR is higher than the pockets. Gerald Undone tested both cameras
A7SIII has 13 pocket has 11.9
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Eugenia Loli

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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 11:28 am

I canceled my R6 order, and I will be (probably) ordering a Sony A7S III instead. I'm not happy at all that there isn't a 4:2:0 option on the Canon (GPUs don't support 4:2:2), neither a way to at least have automatic proxies on the second SD card, neither a larger, stronger HDMI port to at least record externally. Effectively, it's an 8 bit camera, if you want to edit in faster than 1 fps. Canceled.

The Sony is a bit worse in AF (it has the speed, but not the logic of Canon's AI), and in IBIS (E mount is too small to allow for proper IBIS movement -- bad design decision by Sony back in 2008), but it's probably fine overall for what I want to use it for. It has more sensible software options. Now that I found the Phantom Luts that turn s-log to Arri, the color science problem is solved for me (no more olive-green people!). The biggest problem with Sony is that they don't have the lenses that I want. No matter what brand I follow, I always go for their equivalent 24-70 f/2.8 with IS, and 70-200 f/2.8 or f/4 with IS. These two lenses cover 98% of my needs. But Sony-E either they don't have these, or they don't have IS. Their lenses are also way too expensive, except for one slow kit zoom. Oh well.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 11:50 am

Kholi Hicks wrote:I mean nothing will help you make a better movie by that measure. You could still be shooting happily on a 720p/1080i camera, or not owning a camera at all if making a better movie was the concern. You'd be out raising millions or acquiring adequate contacts to make a better movie with better actors, better locations, etc. Moving from whatever you have now to an A7 whatever won’t have any effect on the core of any you want to tell, just how you present it.

Well said Kholi. This and nothing else!!!
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 12:09 pm

Eugenia Loli wrote:The biggest problem with Sony is that they don't have the lenses that I want. No matter what brand I follow, I always go for their equivalent 24-70 f/2.8 with IS, and 70-200 f/2.8 or f/4 with IS. These two lenses cover 98% of my needs. But Sony-E either they don't have these, or they don't have IS. Their lenses are also way too expensive, except for one slow kit zoom. Oh well.


If you can live without AF or zoom, there are some stunningly great native e-mount primes (the Voigtländer Noktons and APO Lanthars, as well as some of the Zeiss Loxias); the f1.2 Noktons have great character, especially the 40mm, which is a very artistic lens, and I believe all the Voigtlanders (except the new SE models) and the Loxias have declickable apertures for video. And of course almost any lens can be adapted to eMount; I'm using Minolta Rokkors on my A7 iii (which I only use for stills) and they are gorgeous.

For people who want a more modern, sharp, optically perfect look, the Sigma Art 35mm f1.2 is amazing, although large and heavy. Arguably the best bokeh of any 35mm lens on the market and sharp throughout the frame even wide open. And it has autofocus.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 12:32 pm

Art Roberts wrote:This idea of comparing BMD cameras to Sony/Canon cameras in a non-narrative category is getting boring. All cameras have their strengths and weaknesses. BMD have duly named most of their cameras "cinema cameras", and it's a fact that cinema cameras are not equipped with AF. The myriads of narratives since time, were all shot on cinema cameras with no AF. As a matter of fact, serious cinematographers wouldn't want anything to do with AF. What I believe deserves a mention in this conversation is BMD's broadcast and production cameras, and why the latter for instance didn't have AF.

1. Canon C line-up. Pretty sure that "C" stands for...ya know.
2. RED Komodo
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 12:37 pm

Kholi Hicks wrote:I mean nothing will help you make a better movie by that measure. You could still be shooting happily on a 720p/1080i camera, or not owning a camera at all if making a better movie was the concern. You'd be out raising millions or acquiring adequate contacts to make a better movie with better actors, better locations, etc. Moving from whatever you have now to an A7 whatever won’t have any effect on the core of any you want to tell, just how you present it.


It might make a difference ("a better movie"), in the very narrow sense of keeping a subject in focus which, ironically, is much more more difficult on a FF camera. In the days of 1/4" sensors, at least everything in no-budget productions was in focus....

But of course you're right on the larger point. Nothing but money or genius will make a movie better, and without money I wouldn't bet on genius.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 12:41 pm

Kholi Hicks wrote:I mean nothing will help you make a better movie by that measure. You could still be shooting happily on a 720p/1080i camera, or not owning a camera at all if making a better movie was the concern. You'd be out raising millions or acquiring adequate contacts to make a better movie with better actors, better locations, etc. Moving from whatever you have now to an A7 whatever won’t have any effect on the core of any you want to tell, just how you present it.

That's myopic to the extreme.

As Eugenia put very well in a previous post - from real world experience - if you're wearing many hats on set, removing one concern frees-up mental/creative bandwidth for more important things.

If you're shooting ultra-low-budget and blow focus on a shot but don't realize it until you get into post, you probably have no opportunity to reshoot it. And while no-one will ever give two shits about the "color science" behind your movie...they will notice soft shots.

Being able to tap on actor A's face and know that for that shot, they will be in focus, is a valuable filmmaking tool. Being able to tap back and forth between actors and smoothly rack between them is even better. That's here, now, and yes, it can help me make better movies in a way more resolution or more dynamic range or more whatever can't.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 12:50 pm

If you can live without AF or zoom, there are some stunningly great native e-mount primes


I need AF (it's one of the reasons that I want to upgrade, as I wrote in the beginning of the thread), and I need lens IS too. And I prefer fast-ish zooms to primes, to save overall money so I don't have to buy too many lenses. I already have EF lenses to adapt, and many vintage lenses, including modded vintage lenses for anamorph-fake look etc etc. So finding random lenses of all focal ranges for it is not a problem. But I still need two fully active zoom lenses that support AF properly (so, Tamron won't do) to make up my main usage or when I'm running and gunning. I'm now leaning towards a 24-105 f/4 Sony lens for $900 on eBay. It doesn't cover all the range I need, neither its IS is as good as in most other lenses, neither it's fast. But it'll have to do, because there is no 24-70 f/2.8 with IS, while the 70-200 f/2.8 is ridiculously expensive ($4900 for both). So that 24-105 for $900 will have to do, and then I'll have to use passive EF or M42 lenses for the rest of the focal lengths that I might need. I find that the only manufacturer with enough lens selection, and often at great prices, is Canon EF (even RF glass is expensive).
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 12:53 pm

Kholi Hicks wrote:Also... who said BMD cameras don’t have “sensor tech” to do that? Did anyone from
BMD say that? Link me.

Obviously I don't have insider knowledge, and BMD surprised everyone in designing their own sensor, but from the outside we can observed that BMD is 1) Currently behind in the technology and 2) has shown no signs that they are prioritizing it.

None of BMD's shipping cameras have phase detect pixels. They have not announced that the new 12K sensor, from which new cameras will be based, has phase detect pixels. Without this, or something similar, the camera must "hunt" to find focus, which virtually eliminates the possibility of clean pulls.

Case in point the Panasonic GH5, 5S, S1, SH1. The software reliably finds and keeps a face, even an eye, but the sensor hardware doesn't allow it to continuously, accurately focus to that point because it has to adjust focus to change contrast to pick a focal point.

PS. BMD's reliance on slow, power-hungry, programmable logic boards would also make it very difficult for them to implement the sophisticated AI required to power the software side.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 1:15 pm

Art Roberts wrote:This idea of comparing BMD cameras to Sony/Canon cameras in a non-narrative category is getting boring. All cameras have their strengths and weaknesses. BMD have duly named most of their cameras "cinema cameras", and it's a fact that cinema cameras are not equipped with AF. The myriads of narratives since time, were all shot on cinema cameras with no AF. As a matter of fact, serious cinematographers wouldn't want anything to do with AF. What I believe deserves a mention in this conversation is BMD's broadcast and production cameras, and why the latter for instance didn't have AF.


Each passing day, these "cinema cameras" are getting into ATEM Mini and are behaving more like online studio cameras than actual cinema cameras. That's the reality.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 1:18 pm

There is a new Live Production update coming in two days. After the 12K announcement I wonder if they are planning something similar for the live production update.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 1:30 pm

joe12south wrote:
Kholi Hicks wrote:I mean nothing will help you make a better movie by that measure. You could still be shooting happily on a 720p/1080i camera, or not owning a camera at all if making a better movie was the concern. You'd be out raising millions or acquiring adequate contacts to make a better movie with better actors, better locations, etc. Moving from whatever you have now to an A7 whatever won’t have any effect on the core of any you want to tell, just how you present it.

That's myopic to the extreme.

As Eugenia put very well in a previous post - from real world experience - if you're wearing many hats on set, removing one concern frees-up mental/creative bandwidth for more important things.

If you're shooting ultra-low-budget and blow focus on a shot but don't realize it until you get into post, you probably have no opportunity to reshoot it. And while no-one will ever give two shits about the "color science" behind your movie...they will notice soft shots.

Being able to tap on actor A's face and know that for that shot, they will be in focus, is a valuable filmmaking tool. Being able to tap back and forth between actors and smoothly rack between them is even better. That's here, now, and yes, it can help me make better movies in a way more resolution or more dynamic range or more whatever can't.


Not to prolong this thought and post, it's not myopic at all from real world experience because without money, very good script/story, A-listed cast and crew, set design/location, your A7, UMP 12K, whatever with all its bells won't matter. You got the money, you can even shoot with the best and the A7 or anything less than an Alexa don't even matter.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 1:59 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:Not to prolong this thought and post, it's not myopic at all from real world experience because without money, very good script/story, A-listed cast and crew, set design/location, your A7, UMP 12K, whatever with all its bells won't matter. You got the money, you can even shoot with the best and the A7 or anything less than an Alexa don't even matter.

It's myopic because it ignores that filmmaking is both an art and a craft, and one that has steep technical requirements in order to reveal the artistic intent in a manner that does not distract a modern audience.

But not all technical requirements matter equally.

If you shoot your movie 2K or 4K or 12K most people won't care. If a shot is out of focus, it will take many people out of the movie...no matter how good the cast, location, etc.

Not all stories require a lot of money, and the less money a filmmaker spends, the more money they are likely to return to investors, which makes it more likely they can make another movie. And that is to say nothing of the value to actors of a small, intimate set.

Autofocus that is 1) reliable and 2) allows creative control is a valuable tool that has its place on set. Denying this in 2020 is like the graphic designers in the 90's who insisted that setting typography well could only be done by human typesetters making "creative" decisions. That job no longer exists, and designers that refused to adapt retired or died.

PS. I'm sure there are still people who think "real" focus pullers don't use monitors, only tape measures.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 2:10 pm

John Paines wrote:It might make a difference ("a better movie"), in the very narrow sense of keeping a subject in focus which, ironically, is much more more difficult on a FF camera. In the days of 1/4" sensors, at least everything in no-budget productions was in focus....

But of course you're right on the larger point. Nothing but money or genius will make a movie better, and without money I wouldn't bet on genius.


Yes, that's the part about "the way you present it", I could argue the same for resolution, dynamic range, color fidelity, a newly designed sensor from the ground up, and more. Keeping a subject in focus isn't any different than any of those things (to me).

All of it is a part of the presentation.

joe12south wrote:
Kholi Hicks wrote:I mean nothing will help you make a better movie by that measure. You could still be shooting happily on a 720p/1080i camera, or not owning a camera at all if making a better movie was the concern. You'd be out raising millions or acquiring adequate contacts to make a better movie with better actors, better locations, etc. Moving from whatever you have now to an A7 whatever won’t have any effect on the core of any you want to tell, just how you present it.


That's myopic to the extreme.

As Eugenia put very well in a previous post - from real world experience - if you're wearing many hats on set, removing one concern frees-up mental/creative bandwidth for more important things.


It's "myopic" if you've never actually shot a feature film and tried to sell it before, it's "myopic" if you've never tried to step through the door of a studio system. Anyone who has knows better.

I wear many hats, always. It's how I got to where I am, I understand the ROOT of what you're saying, but you're pointing out any given little component of a camera system and referring to it as less useful than another.

AF is more important than Ks.

Well, to you... but...

If you're shooting ultra-low-budget and blow focus on a shot but don't realize it until you get into post, you probably have no opportunity to reshoot it. And while no-one will ever give two shits about the "color science" behind your movie...they will notice soft shots.


I may not blow the same shot if I shot a profile / wide at 12K and had the ability to create two profile mediums and other cut aways from the same master (Hands, feet, objects) etc. If I were smart I would actually plan every single setup around this so that I can always use it in a bind, and if it served tone, I would do this and this only to cover entire scenes with zero budget behind them, minimizing the need for lighting, storage, and crew.

Now 12K just saved me time and money on a no budget shoot, and saved my life in post because the single was a little too out of focus to salvage.

Being able to tap on actor A's face and know that for that shot, they will be in focus, is a valuable filmmaking tool. Being able to tap back and forth between actors and smoothly rack between them is even better. That's here, now, and yes, it can help me make better movies in a way more resolution or more dynamic range or more whatever can't.


But, I just basically disproved this in a single example. A better movie / presentation can come from adequate coverage, which 12K can give you. A better presentation can come from getting the shot in near darkness that you couldn't get with a camera that weren't as good in lowlight.

A better presentation can be the reproduction of a certain green color that you feel your audience will see as iconic, and needing to capture it as purely as possible.

You're trying to say one set of features is absolutely more valuable that the ones YOU don't need. It's wrong. None of them are more valuable. The entire point of choosing a camera is the same as choosing any other instrument: you're picking a set of trade-offs for your budget that YOU can live with, that make YOU feel comfortable when you go to create.

From my POV, I see the 12K cam and everything it brings as a pretty insanely useful tool at an insane price, that would help me, someone who knows the pains of shooting an entire feature or short as DP, director, producer, gaffer, focus puller (AC), DIT, all of these hats in one (and I'll do it again because I find it fun). That's pretty understandable.

You see the A7's Autofocus as your life saving, peace-of-mind feature that you're willing to give up on whatever tradeoffs that camera has. That's pretty understandable.

Not one single aspect of a camera is more important than the other, or more universally useful than the other OUTSIDE of the camera being able to turn on and operate.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 2:36 pm

Kholi Hicks wrote:But, I just basically disproved this in a single example. A better movie / presentation can come from adequate coverage, which 12K can give you. A better presentation can come from getting the shot in near darkness that you couldn't get with a camera that weren't as good in lowlight.

A better presentation can be the reproduction of a certain green color that you feel your audience will see as iconic, and needing to capture it as purely as possible.

You're trying to say one set of features is absolutely more valuable that the ones YOU don't need. It's wrong. None of them are more valuable. The entire point of choosing a camera is the same as choosing any other instrument: you're picking a set of trade-offs for your budget that YOU can live with, that make YOU feel comfortable when you go to create.

From my POV, I see the 12K cam and everything it brings as a pretty insanely useful tool at an insane price, that would help me, someone who knows the pains of shooting an entire feature or short as DP, director, producer, gaffer, focus puller (AC), DIT, all of these hats in one (and I'll do it again because I find it fun). That's pretty understandable.

You see the A7's Autofocus as your life saving, peace-of-mind feature that you're willing to give up on whatever tradeoffs that camera has. That's pretty understandable.

Not one single aspect of a camera is more important than the other, or more universally useful than the other OUTSIDE of the camera being able to turn on and operate.


Interesting and valid points. I inherently disagree, though, that some aspects aren't more important than others. Audiences...and gatekeepers...are more sensitive to some things than others. For example: Bad audio = unforgivable.

Reframing in post is a convenience. Hitting focus is a necessity.

I've spent nearly 50 years of my life, and over 30 professionally, without autofocus. I know the value of a good focus puller. I know the power of intentional, but non-obvious, focus. But I've lived and worked through too many technological shifts to ignore - and not take advantage of - the one that's about to hit us.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 2:46 pm

joe12south wrote:
Interesting and valid points. I inherently disagree, though, that some aspects aren't more important than others. Audiences...and gatekeepers...are more sensitive to some things than others. For example: Bad audio = unforgivable.

Reframing in post is a convenience. Hitting focus is a necessity.


Audio and Camera are not the same thing for me, so I ignored that part, but if I were telling someone how to create a better presentation, I'd tell them to hire the one Audio guy that five other people recommend, feed him well, get him an assistant, rent whatever equipment he needs, listen to him when he tells you that you need to get that again, stop everything when he asks you for roomtone.

I'd do that before I hired the next best DP.

Gatekeepers and audiences aren't all that sensitive to technically poor images, it's why TANGERINE can exist and gain awards. Or, as an extreme example, COHERENCE, which should be completely unwatchable but is actually a very good VERY UGLY low low budget SCi-fi movie that I couldn't recommend enough.

We can absolutely agree that bad audio is absolutely unforgivable.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 3:03 pm

Kholi Hicks wrote:Audio and Camera are not the same thing for me, so I ignored that part, but if I were telling someone how to create a better presentation, I'd tell them to hire the one Audio guy that five other people recommend, feed him well, get him an assistant, rent whatever equipment he needs, listen to him when he tells you that you need to get that again, stop everything when he asks you for roomtone.

I'd do that before I hired the next best DP.

Gatekeepers and audiences aren't all that sensitive to technically poor images, it's why TANGERINE can exist and gain awards. Or, as an extreme example, COHERENCE, which should be completely unwatchable but is actually a very good VERY UGLY low low budget SCi-fi movie that I couldn't recommend enough.

We can absolutely agree that bad audio is absolutely unforgivable.

Focus is the one aspect of PQ that I've seen materially impact a film. It's often a reason to throw-out festival submissions and I've heard John Q Public complain about it at many a friend's screenings.

One of the side-benefits of shooting a movie on a tiny sensor like an iPhone is that everything is in focus. :P
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 3:23 pm

joe12south wrote:
Interesting and valid points. I inherently disagree, though, that some aspects aren't more important than others. Audiences...and gatekeepers...are more sensitive to some things than others. For example: Bad audio = unforgivable.

Reframing in post is a convenience. Hitting focus is a necessity.

I've spent nearly 50 years of my life, and over 30 professionally, without autofocus. I know the value of a good focus puller. I know the power of intentional, but non-obvious, focus. But I've lived and worked through too many technological shifts to ignore - and not take advantage of - the one that's about to hit us.


Watched Friends recently and some shots were poorly focused. It was very annoying.
Only when quality goes down a lot it starts to matter as then it's distracting.
Remember doing Blu-ray with low budget movie shot on Canon still camera with plenty of aliasing. In extra footage they were saying it adds artistic value- well, total crap. It was so annoying and distracting that you kept forgetting about story. Movie was crap anyway :)
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 3:25 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Watched Friends recently and some shots were poorly focused. It was very annoying.

I think "very annoying" is a creative choice for Friends. :P
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 3:28 pm

In practice, this issue has already been settled: the major manufacturers are providing continuous AF, of varying effectiveness, on low-end cameras designed for some form of "cinema", or at least marketed suggestively that way.

The 12K is a different market, more likely to be used on an actual industrial production, but it's hard to see how BMD can resist at the low end as other companies catch up on image quality.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 3:33 pm

John Paines wrote:In practice, this issue has already been settled: the major manufacturers are providing continuous AF, of varying effectiveness, on low-end cameras designed for some form of "cinema", or at least marketed suggestively that way.

The 12K is a different market, more likely to be used on an actual industrial production, but it's hard to see how BMD can resist at the low end as other companies catch up on image quality.

I'm not sure many outside of this forum would consider the UMP12K to be punching above a C500 MKII.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 3:46 pm

joe12south wrote:I'm not sure many outside of this forum would consider the UMP12K to be punching above a C500 MKII.


All I'm saying is, any production which bought or hired a 12K, along with the investment in lenses and gear entailed, probably wouldn't depend, or want to depend, on AF. You'd think they'd have some other resources, beyond the camera itself.

When Canon cinema cameras are used on actual professional feature productions, how much use does AF get? My guess is, very little, if at all. It wouldn't make sense, given the overhead, when you can have an accomplished human doing it, with all the judgment and discrimination that implies.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 4:03 pm

Eugenia Loli wrote:
I need AF (it's one of the reasons that I want to upgrade, as I wrote in the beginning of the thread), and I need lens IS too. And I prefer fast-ish zooms to primes, to save overall money so I don't have to buy too many lenses. I already have EF lenses to adapt, and many vintage lenses, including modded vintage lenses for anamorph-fake look etc etc. So finding random lenses of all focal ranges for it is not a problem. But I still need two fully active zoom lenses that support AF properly (so, Tamron won't do) to make up my main usage or when I'm running and gunning. I'm now leaning towards a 24-105 f/4 Sony lens for $900 on eBay. It doesn't cover all the range I need, neither its IS is as good as in most other lenses, neither it's fast. But it'll have to do, because there is no 24-70 f/2.8 with IS, while the 70-200 f/2.8 is ridiculously expensive ($4900 for both). So that 24-105 for $900 will have to do, and then I'll have to use passive EF or M42 lenses for the rest of the focal lengths that I might need. I find that the only manufacturer with enough lens selection, and often at great prices, is Canon EF (even RF glass is expensive).


If you already have a bunch of EF lenses and FF sensor is not a must have you be better off with a Komodo.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 4:52 pm

WahWay wrote:
Eugenia Loli wrote:
I need AF (it's one of the reasons that I want to upgrade, as I wrote in the beginning of the thread), and I need lens IS too. And I prefer fast-ish zooms to primes, to save overall money so I don't have to buy too many lenses. I already have EF lenses to adapt, and many vintage lenses, including modded vintage lenses for anamorph-fake look etc etc. So finding random lenses of all focal ranges for it is not a problem. But I still need two fully active zoom lenses that support AF properly (so, Tamron won't do) to make up my main usage or when I'm running and gunning. I'm now leaning towards a 24-105 f/4 Sony lens for $900 on eBay. It doesn't cover all the range I need, neither its IS is as good as in most other lenses, neither it's fast. But it'll have to do, because there is no 24-70 f/2.8 with IS, while the 70-200 f/2.8 is ridiculously expensive ($4900 for both). So that 24-105 for $900 will have to do, and then I'll have to use passive EF or M42 lenses for the rest of the focal lengths that I might need. I find that the only manufacturer with enough lens selection, and often at great prices, is Canon EF (even RF glass is expensive).


If you already have a bunch of EF lenses and FF sensor is not a must have you be better off with a Komodo.
Assuming the Komodo’s AF is good. As it is not even finished and initial tests look kinda rough, that’s not a safe assumption.


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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 5:09 pm

Mark Wyatt wrote:The new standard...for undesirable color?
Sony declare that they use the same color science of FX9; this camera is thought like b cam for fx9.

This camera had many interesting point, but at 3800$ price point.
At that price I wann’t to buy a photo camera, but I can pretend a video camera.


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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 5:22 pm

joe12south wrote:
WahWay wrote:
If you already have a bunch of EF lenses and FF sensor is not a must have you be better off with a Komodo.
Assuming the Komodo’s AF is good. As it is not even finished and initial tests look kinda rough, that’s not a safe assumption.


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And both the A7SIII and R5 we know what the AF is like but the rest such as recording times and editing friendly it cannot be relied on. I'm glad Komodo has'nt finished yet it means they are still refining it, but I do worry about R5 and ASIII going into production when its clear they have issues.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 7:22 pm

The All-I codec from the A7S III should be reasonably editing friendly.
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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostWed Jul 29, 2020 9:26 pm

WahWay wrote:
Eugenia Loli wrote:
I need AF


If you already have a bunch of EF lenses and FF sensor is not a must have you be better off with a Komodo.


Maybe want to wait to see how good the AF is.

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Re: New Sony A7 S III. The new standard.

PostThu Jul 30, 2020 7:13 am

joe12south wrote:If the R5 did not overheat the way it does, and if it's RAW codec wasn't such a heavy beast, it would be in my shopping cart.

In this video a Sony A7S III shut down due to overheating after 29 min., sooner than a Canon R5 that quit after 34 min.

I wonder if the floating mounts from the IBIS systems are preventing heat transfer off the sensor? Will they start making tripod mounts with powerful fans like they do for laptops to improve reliability? Will the sensors loosen up on their mounts after a while, causing them to overheat? Could this limit their raw output above 10 bit, once Atomos builds a recorder for it?

Maybe a wedding photographer should have a Blackmagic camera running simultaneously along with one of these, to avoid losing a critical moment in the service. In the early days of microcomputers, dealers would burn in the computers before delivery to the customer. Maybe we should insist on this service with these "bleeding edge" cameras, to weed out the defective ones.

Sony a7siii overheats BEFORE Canon R5
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