Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

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Wayne Steven

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 11:25 pm

Actually, Bayer was chosen because it was better at resolutions more one on one. There is few better ones, such as the random sensor pattern. Actually, it was originally meant to be complimentary coloured as well, but it the calculations needed were too much at that stage. But here, we are dealing with significant downresing images instead, allowing other patterns to be more useful. However, of rather the random sensor pattern, which isn't random at all, but enough to break up problems in demosaicing Bayer. I would rather a hybrid colour scheme instead too, using a few more complimentary colours. But seriously, three chip 4:4:4 like colour would be nice. The modern technology could suppress noise in the red channel too, and bring more low light. So, the sensor pattern isn't too much of a revolution, but it is a significant step towards the future.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 12, 2020 11:51 pm

Yogendra Singh wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
Nope! But it turns up here in camera samples. It's likely what she's is wearing, or not wearing. Hence the need for 3 more stops, to make it look more similar to what we see, and more if you want to push it around and have a similar look to how we see. 16 stop should be minimum now. I was surprised G2 didn't get there. By what this camera does, a 4.6k should.

These highlight spots are what made Nikon to lose their market share to canon. surprisingly canon cameras with only 12 stops of DR have minimal highlight spots. even with 72 dpi pics.
I am sure BM cameras have better highlight roll-off.



Without researching it, I will guess it's the following: The two sensor companies probably measure dynamic range in a different way, with the likely Sony technology not being able to keep up in the day, and doing something that raise the image to clipping I've commented about last decade or decade before last. Even now. The 686 Sony mobile sensor with its increased dynamic range, is still attracting review comments about dynamic range. However, dynamic range is only the start, it's what you do with it. As I was posting about a while ago, you can carefully clean the noise floor and restore some picture to get extra stops, use highlight recovery like techniques, and use the extra space to move the image response around in. Of course, it's always possible, that Cabin users being so stayed and conservative, under expose the image reducing it, and those hyped up Sony radicals are over exposing. :)

Of course, Sony products tend towards a brighter image, and clipping the low end to black (as can still be seen sometimes). In film days people didn't have such an issue with noise in shadows, without clipping it off. They didn't have trouble with noise everywhere, though fortunately not on the Sun. The usual type back then, were worried how bad the image looked with noise, and even tried to find ways to put to grain back in. Now days I am glad it is largely gone. Some noise is ok, and more noise when you don't have choices, or for effect. But, as usual, these types never come back and say you were right and apologize.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Aug 14, 2020 8:17 am

Adam Langdon wrote:can anyone validate this as authentic Ursa Mini 12k footage?



Based on their followup vid also titled, 12k URSA.. I'd say this is click-bait.

In that other vid, the reflection shows a 4.6k Ursa Mini, although it could be an early mock-body for the 12k... safe to assume this is just someone doing click-bait...effectively.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 23, 2020 10:45 pm

Has anyone tried pushing in on the 12K samples 2 or 4 times? I'm not getting good results.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Aug 25, 2020 9:37 pm

The Film and Digital Times (FDT) Issue 104 features John Brawley and the URSA Mini Pro 12G:
https://www.fdtimes.com/issues/august-2020-edition/

Individual back issues may be freely downloaded as well. Enjoy.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 7:19 am

Interestingly, they found the Sony A7S III worth covering too.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 10:38 pm

More footage:

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostWed Aug 26, 2020 11:57 pm

You can bust out the bottom of a coke bottle and use that glass as a lens and it will still look great with this camera.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 3:53 am

Adam Langdon wrote:More footage:



Thank goodness some decent footage. I can see how it is trying to rescue the footage. This is what I was proposing they could get the pocket to do. My colour science theory is such that you could match that with a pocket. But, it's still showing that the camera needs at least two more stops lattutude and low light. The the image will shine like the sun, in a subtle way. At 4.6k s35, it should be able to do that in lattutude. I wonder what is going hsoken with the 4.6k's?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 4:10 am

Sorry, I'm forgetting myself. Those washed out, or nearly washed out, highlight areas, on vimeo here probably have more shading in real life.

Congrats on the images by the way, whoever did that. But what's indicative about this industry, is who wishes up by floodlight in real life. :)

BM should hold a competition, for best promo footage of a new camera. Grant and others can videoconference a judging panel announcment season. Select the best five or so, then select and judge which is the most appealing to them.


Boy, been really peaceful around here for weeks, hope they are getting along on their new forum peacefully, without the usual people to have a go at. Feels like that field scene in the sound of Music. To sit peacefully in a cool field, ..ahh!
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 4:47 am

I saw this image but...

EDIT: photo removed by request.

I've also now altered the text of original post.

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Last edited by timbutt2 on Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Aug 27, 2020 8:04 pm

That makes two of us! I would also love to see how these DZO lenses stack up against the new Laowa OOOM Cine lens.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Aug 28, 2020 6:57 pm

I wonder when the actual release date will be.
Amazon says September 17??
I’m just dying to get one!
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Aug 29, 2020 9:41 pm

Wondering if shooting 4k in camera will still yield the same advantages as shooting 12k and delivering to 4k through DaVinci? Like will the incamera-resize still yield full RGB in 4k? I know the symmetric CFA and the braw codec allow for computationally much simpler resizing, but just wondering if it can match the quality of a non-realtime transcode in post..
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 30, 2020 2:02 pm

Here's some images from Laowa of their OOOM 25-100mm T2.9 Cine lens w/ 1.33x rear anamorphic adapter.
apparently shot on the Ursa 12K....

Image

Image

Image

Also, this guy has an Ursa Mini 12K, according to his instagram:

Last edited by Adam Langdon on Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 30, 2020 3:55 pm

Saw that video (and a second one has on his channel as well), but they look and feel so different from the other 12k material.. Difficult to say whats going on.

Interesting with the anamorphic adapter. Any idea how much light that's gonna take? With 2.9 the zoom isn't exactly super fast to begin with. I would imagine a stop or so light loss at least.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 30, 2020 4:11 pm

Paul Jonathan wrote:Saw that video (and a second one has on his channel as well), but they look and feel so different from the other 12k material.. Difficult to say whats going on.

Interesting with the anamorphic adapter. Any idea how much light that's gonna take? With 2.9 the zoom isn't exactly super fast to begin with. I would imagine a stop or so light loss at least.


it's interesting how vast the quality of footage i've seen already.
JB's footage still looks solid and 3D like, same for Note's, but then i see some other footage and it doesn't seem that unique or worth the investment. i can't tell if it's just the character of the movement i see vs handheld stuff.

I'm back on the fence about purchasing the 12k. i think until i get to play with some non-website BRAW files, i'll get some clearer direction. I could get a used UMP G2 (or stick with my current UMP G1) and just get some higher-end PL glass and start the investment that way. Then, when the time is right, I'll move into the 12k route.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 30, 2020 4:24 pm

Adam Langdon wrote:it's interesting how vast the quality of footage i've seen already.


Interesting what else have you seen beside this, JB's and Note's? For this footage, I was wondering if there is some bad Youtube conversion going on? I am seeing serious macro-blocking thats making the highlight roll-off and focus fall-off appear much harsher. Both Note and JB uploaded to Vimeo. But yeah there are obviously other reasons at work here too, location, camera work etc.

Adam Langdon wrote:I'm back on the fence about purchasing the 12k.


Yes, same.. So tricky. A 6k or 8k cutdown of this sensor into a z-cam style body would be an instant buy from me, even at a significantly higher price of the current pocket. But yeah, 10k for 12k are a serious chunk of money, that would need a lot more footage to really convince me.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 30, 2020 4:48 pm

I believe I recently read that the disadvantage of putting the anamorphic adapter after the rear element is that there is a reduction in the amount of light hitting the photosite. So that’s likely a stop.

When you put the SLR Magic 1.33x-65 Anamorphot adapter on the front of the taking lens, there is no reduction in light as the adapter pulls in the needed light from the wider angle of view to feed the lens entrance pupil.

Different story apparently when you’re altering the light from the exit pupil since the amount of light has already been fixed by the entrance pupil I suppose. I’ll certainly defer to any lens designer if I’m wrong.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Aug 30, 2020 5:33 pm

I'll be honest about the footage shared from the Manoj Paramahamsa YouTube... it just feels like everything else I've seen out of India. They have a specific style of shooting. This felt most in line with that. However, I wasn't a fan of the color grades on both videos.

Note & JB both had very nice grades, and their footage had a refined cinematography style.

I'm sold on the 12K. Just as there are those who shoot on an ARRI, RED, Sony, or Blackmagic and don't create great looking images, the same will be true with people for the 12K. It's the talent behind the camera and not the camera. I learned this recently with praise I got for a photo I took with a decade old Canon 7D. I hate the DSLR, but my talent had a lot of people writing praise. I also recently had someone ask how I get such great looking images out of my camera when they are struggling. And, here's the thing, I always view myself as continuing to improve and always seeking to do better.

So, judgement should be held for more footage from other professionals with the camera. I'm sure we'll see a lot more stunning results.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 7:17 am

Is that the 7D with 5 layered colour? One of the only alternative technologies to foveon X3 to be released to market? If it wasn't for the alaising artifacts resolution framerate and codec, I could have bought one.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 4:37 pm

It amazes me of how people jump on things as great over the years, instead of instantly start weighing things up before they declsre it's great. We really need to start doing that to be a greater culture. The screen quality of the camera seems to have a lot to do with the colour science rather than the camera. The specs tells the truth. The pixel size effecting the dynamic range and sensitivity, and the number of white pixels. But the picture is what I've been saying you can do with such specs (leaving out the white pixels) through abc processes, and there it is, great. The edges of the image still show things that a few stops will cure. It's a technique to draw out performance in most of the range that is important. So, in future it's going be better. But I hope CineD tests lattutude at lower resolutions.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 5:28 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Is that the 7D with 5 layered colour? One of the only alternative technologies to foveon X3 to be released to market? If it wasn't for the alaising artifacts resolution framerate and codec, I could have bought one.
It’s just the 7D Mark 1 released in 2009. No idea about 5 layered color. But here’s the image in case you’re curious.
Image


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 8:24 pm

The footage from the indian guy is most likely fake. There have been a plethora of videos posted by indian /pakistani youtube channels with stock footage bought / stolen and passed as a "camera test". There are videos for "komodo vs pocket 6k", "komodo vs canon r5" and so on where its the same stock / phone footage shown in split screen but one (usually not the "komodo" part) with crushed blacks. To make the "komodo" look good or to try and get views based on what should be popular these days (komodo, r5, ursa12k...)?.

Why they do this is beyond me...
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Aug 31, 2020 10:47 pm

Thanks Tim. Interesting composition.

Here's that 7D talk:

https://www.tomsguide.com/amp/us/canon- ... 19077.html

Literally, using that technology in their camcorders and prosumer range, could have kept them up there in the last decade.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 8:28 pm

Here is another article talking a bit more about the new sensor in the Ursa Mini 12K. I thought I would share in case anybody else was interested.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/225623-discussing-ursa-mini-pro-12k/
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Sep 21, 2020 6:19 am

CaptainHook wrote:I've posted read out speeds here for those interested in that kind of thing :

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.ph ... 1986834151

Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K

Full 12K : ~15.5ms
12K 2.4:1 : ~12.3ms
8K/4K (full field of view) : ~8.5ms*
6K crop : ~7.8ms
8K 2.4:1 (full width) : ~6.7ms*
4K crop : ~4.25ms*


*We hope to improve this slightly in an update


With the 7.0 update that has just gone live on the site, the read out speeds on the 12K are now:

12k 17:9 -> 15.55ms
12k 2.4:1 -> 12.27ms
8k 17:9 (full FOV) -> 7.78ms
4k 17:9 (full FOV) -> 7.78ms
6k Super16 -> 7.78ms
8k 2.4:1 (full width) -> 6.13ms
4k 2.4:1 (full width) -> 6.13ms
4k Super16 -> 3.89ms
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 3:43 pm

Impressive improvements keep on coming.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 3:52 pm

Dan Cotreau wrote:Here is another article talking a bit more about the new sensor in the Ursa Mini 12K. I thought I would share in case anybody else was interested.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/225623-discussing-ursa-mini-pro-12k/
Dan, the information in that article is inaccurate or misleading at best. When he references the photosites, he’s implying there are R, G, B, and a clear (or white) for luminance. We know the sensor has three clear photosites as well as the three R, G, B photosites.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 6:54 pm

rick.lang wrote:
Dan Cotreau wrote:Here is another article talking a bit more about the new sensor in the Ursa Mini 12K. I thought I would share in case anybody else was interested.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/225623-discussing-ursa-mini-pro-12k/
Dan, the information in that article is inaccurate or misleading at best. When he references the photosites, he’s implying there are R, G, B, and a clear (or white) for luminance. We know the sensor has three clear photosites as well as the three R, G, B photosites.


Rick thanks for the heads up on the inaccuracies within this article.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Oct 15, 2020 3:23 pm


In this comparison, I have noted 2 points
1. Highlight roll off of canon is better
2. Ursa 12k footage is noisy.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Oct 15, 2020 5:21 pm

Yogendra Singh wrote:

In this comparison, I have noted 2 points
1. Highlight roll off of canon is better
2. Ursa 12k footage is noisy.


I do not agree with most of the findings and the results I have seen in youtube videos, especially from Epic Light Media. It looks like to me, that there's a learning curve involved with using the 12k as has been the case with many users of BMD products. I think that their videos ought to simply be a documentation of their own journey in learning how to use the new tool. I don't mean this as a slight to them really, its a new product with a totally different sensor. I think they need a bit more education on the product and titling/formating the videos to reflect this would be a bit more fair to the viewer.

In general I would attribute the highlight rolloff situation in most cases regardless of camera to be a reflection of the way footage is shot and more importantly, how it is graded. I remember a lot of complaints about the pocket camera highlight roll off and the Ursa roll off compared to other cameras and in reality it was how the footage was worked in post that made it look that way. Same thing with color as well as noise actually. When you look at the side by side examples in this video, you can see how differently the contrast is applied and provide totally different looks. What they could have done was map the luma values to be closer to each other, but they didn't do that for some reason. It looks more like a comparison of luts or grading than camera comparison in many of these side by sides, reflecting the initial user comparisons of BMD's newer cameras where luts are essentially put onto the footage without trying to match shots at all.

Noise, sharpness etc. in my opinion only matters when you are looking at the end result and it frustrates me a bit that we cannot see properly denoised, sharpened, and completed footage alongside a breakdown of the node tree so that we can see exactly how the post adjustments have been performed. Without this, its anyone's guess as to how work has been performed.

The only thing I have seen so far that is useful information is a consistent issue with moire out of the 12k. I would definitely like to know if the moire is from the camera or something to do with processing as it just seems inconceivable to me since the pocket 6k in my experience seems to have such control over moire but the 12k doesn't.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Oct 15, 2020 5:34 pm

Yogendra Singh wrote:

In this comparison, I have noted 2 points
1. Highlight roll off of canon is better
2. Ursa 12k footage is noisy.
They’re comparing 12K footage graded by someone else, and someone that, as pointed out in the video, still learning. Even more so we don’t know their grading process for the 12K. I wouldn’t take this video comparison to heart.


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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Oct 15, 2020 10:55 pm

Dune00z wrote:
Yogendra Singh wrote:

In this comparison, I have noted 2 points
1. Highlight roll off of canon is better
2. Ursa 12k footage is noisy.


I do not agree with most of the findings and the results I have seen in youtube videos, especially from Epic Light Media. It looks like to me, that there's a learning curve involved with using the 12k as has been the case with many users of BMD products. I think that their videos ought to simply be a documentation of their own journey in learning how to use the new tool. I don't mean this as a slight to them really, its a new product with a totally different sensor. I think they need a bit more education on the product and titling/formating the videos to reflect this would be a bit more fair to the viewer.

In general I would attribute the highlight rolloff situation in most cases regardless of camera to be a reflection of the way footage is shot and more importantly, how it is graded. I remember a lot of complaints about the pocket camera highlight roll off and the Ursa roll off compared to other cameras and in reality it was how the footage was worked in post that made it look that way.


I didn't buy the original 4.6k mini, because of the harsh way it clipped early into highlight in the original BM sample frame, and that was presumably supplied by engineering. But, I had previously seen the same on Red footage. When is reality you can get maybe 16 stops out it for eng type purposes, if you labour at it and clean noise. Unfortunately, from memory, the accumulated noise profile of that camera doesn't allow you to get 17 stops meaningfully doing this, as the type of noise is to great.

If BM had done that original sample differently, maybe I would own one today.

At least Epic did find a few bugs. But, if they follow pushing cameras to extremes, and even past BM cameras, they would know that the grid like pattern at extremes of low light is common imbalance when you push s number of sensors to their limits.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostThu Oct 15, 2020 11:22 pm

A few things about how to use the Ursa, that neither Epic media nor Armando Ferreira might be realizing when they did their tests:

1. Diffraction with 12k res on a s35-sized sensor starts at F/4.
2. Diffraction with 8k res on a s35-sized sensor starts at F/5.6.

This means that to properly do a test with an Ursa, you need to use a lens that's sharp between f/2 and f/4, and VERY FEW such lenses exist. The Sigma EF 40mm is one of the few of these that can resolve 12k at the required aperture speeds. Please note, just because you used an expensive cinema lens, doesn't mean that that lens can resolve 12k. Many cinema lenses were made to resolve 4k, at best, even the super expensive ones. You need a sharp, photography lens to properly test 12k, since photography lenses have traditionally put more design effort into sharpness than cinema lenses.

In other words, if you want to make use of this 12k camera, you need specific lenses. The vast majority of them won't do. That's something people need to factor in the cost of the camera.

3. The moire problem could be because of the downscaling on-screen, or on youtube, or when exporting as 8k from 12k. If that's the case, then seeing the moire is normal DEPENDING which downscaling algorithm the video editor is using. Have they told us in their review if the moire exists when seeing the footage zoomed in at 1:1 on their monitor? If no, then it's a downscaling issue, and not a camera issue.

4. Still bouts of IR pollution on the footage (look at the guy's black shirt, on Armando's video). I don't understand why after all these years, BMD puts such weak IR+UV filters on their cameras. You'd think that they've learned by now.

5. The colors to me looked exactly as if they came out of a Sony sensor. I know that BMD said that they designed this 12k sensor, but to me, the color looked exactly the same as before (as if it's using the same design and CFA filters). Canon produced more matte, muted colors that are to my liking, and closer to kodak film and ARRI.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Oct 16, 2020 12:12 am

As sensible as usual. Yes, I noted that it was very much like a Sony sensor, and wondered if they paid to do a design with Sony technology, and whatever else they bring. But, it's probably not just Sony, but any sensor manufacturer who produce similar images. The higher data speed than Sony and past aptina, and no dual gain and poor light ability, probably narrows down who they are using. I haven't kept up, but a review of sensors out there, and announced technologies coming into actual use, at sensors world blogspot, would probably reveal who it likely is, but I don't want to spend 20 hours doing that. Actually engineers comment on articles, do they might have already commented who it likely is on tan 12k article.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostFri Oct 16, 2020 10:39 am

Eugenia Loli wrote:5. The colors to me looked exactly as if they came out of a Sony sensor. I know that BMD said that they designed this 12k sensor, but to me, the color looked exactly the same as before (as if it's using the same design and CFA filters). Canon produced more matte, muted colors that are to my liking, and closer to kodak film and ARRI.


Do you mean like sony Alpha colors? Or like Sony Venice? I wouldn't mind the latter. From hearsay this also applies to the A7S III.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSat Oct 17, 2020 3:45 am

Eugenia Loli wrote:A few things about how to use the Ursa, that neither Epic media nor Armando Ferreira might be realizing when they did their tests:

1. Diffraction with 12k res on a s35-sized sensor starts at F/4.
2. Diffraction with 8k res on a s35-sized sensor starts at F/5.6.

This means that to properly do a test with an Ursa, you need to use a lens that's sharp between f/2 and f/4, and VERY FEW such lenses exist. The Sigma EF 40mm is one of the few of these that can resolve 12k at the required aperture speeds. Please note, just because you used an expensive cinema lens, doesn't mean that that lens can resolve 12k. Many cinema lenses were made to resolve 4k, at best, even the super expensive ones. You need a sharp, photography lens to properly test 12k, since photography lenses have traditionally put more design effort into sharpness than cinema lenses.

In other words, if you want to make use of this 12k camera, you need specific lenses. The vast majority of them won't do. That's something people need to factor in the cost of the camera.


From this explanation it seems that higher resolution always compensate sharpness loss caused by diffraction. But who knows, maybe at extreme 12K 80Mpix things may be different.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 6:29 am

Eugenia Loli wrote:A few things about how to use the Ursa, that neither Epic media nor Armando Ferreira might be realizing when they did their tests:

1. Diffraction with 12k res on a s35-sized sensor starts at F/4.
2. Diffraction with 8k res on a s35-sized sensor starts at F/5.6.




Can you please lay out the maths of how you got to these numbers ?

I’m especially interested in what pixel pitch you assumed for each camera.

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 9:47 am

Diameter of Airy Disk:

f/2.8 = 3.77µm
f/4 = 5.33µm
f/5.6 = 7.53µm
f/8 = 10.65µm
f/11 = 15.07µm

Diffraction limit becomes visible when the Airy Disk is larger than 2.5 times the Pixel size.

Pixel size:

PCC4k ... 18.96mm x 10mm ... 4096 x 2160px -> 4.63µm -> Limit >= 11.58µm | < f/9.0
PCC6k ... 23.10mm x 12.99mm ... 6144 x 3456px -> 3.76µm -> Limit >= 9.4µm | < f/7.1
UMPro ... 25.34mm x 14.25mm ... 4608 x 2592px -> 5.5µm -> Limit >= 13.75µm | < f/11
UMP12k ... 27.03mm x 14.25mm ... 12,288 x 6480px -> 2.2µm -> Limit >= 5.5µm | < f/4.5
UMP12k ... 27.03mm x 14.25mm ... DCI 8192 x 4320 scaled -> 3.3µm -> Limit >= 8.25µm | < f/6.3
UMP12k ... 27.03mm x 14.25mm ... UHD 7680 x 4320 scaled -> 3.52µm -> Limit >= 8.8µm | < f/6.7
UMP12k ... 27.03mm x 14.25mm ... UHD 4096 x 2160 scaled -> 6.6µm -> Limit >= 16.5µm | < f/13
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 12:00 pm

Very interesting, Robert. Thanks for the detailed layout! So not only does this camera show flaws of less-than-stellar lenses, even the best lenses out there will only perform well up until T5.6 or so. Shouldn't be too much of an issue, since you'd always have the internal ND's handy in case you need them and most narrative film making doesn't film at stops above 5.6 anyway.

Still waiting for some proper test results with this camera. So far only Geoff Boyle seems to have made a proper attempt and even he fell victim to the diffraction limit. On the other hand using NDs instead of stopping down the lens would introduce possible color shifts that could taint test results..
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 1:29 pm

Just because diffraction sets in doesn't mean the image is sub optimal, only as good as a lower resolution sensor or only certain lenses are 'worthy'. The loss of moiré with diffraction or inherent resolution limitation is a definite advantage.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 1:36 pm

In the Wikipedia article on Airy disks, it’s noted that the human eye’s cones have a pitch of about 2.5 microns. Interesting that the BMD 12K sensor pitch is 2.2 microns so theoretically could provide better resolution than the human eye aside from the contribution in the respective image processors in the camera and the brain.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 2:45 pm

Robert, based on the Airy Disk diameters, I’m wondering if your diffraction limits are correct for some of the entries. For example, if the Airy Disk diameter is 5.33 microns and that corresponds to a diffraction limit <f/4, then the 12K sensor would have an Airy Disk diameter of 5.5 microns and a diffraction limit of <f/4.1 rather than the <f/4.5 you mentioned.

Apologies if I’m wrong, but just using the Airy Disk sizes and diffraction limits you mentioned at the beginning for those corresponding f/stops. I’ve no idea if the f/stops mentioned at the beginning are correct but I assumed they were.

Thanks for any further clarification.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 4:47 pm

John Griffin wrote:Just because diffraction sets in doesn't mean the image is sub optimal, only as good as a lower resolution sensor or only certain lenses are 'worthy'. The loss of moiré with diffraction or inherent resolution limitation is a definite advantage.


Indeed.

Lenses too also have performance sweet spots, typically performing best at a couple of stops closed down from their maximum aperture.

We’re falling back into very specific properties of “resolution” and sharpness. Diffraction limitations are a sliding scale as well. A lens doesn’t suddenly perform poorly with a half stop difference in exposure.

There’s a natural interest in a camera with such high resolution, but it’s really not what’s great about this camera. It’s so much more than “12K”....

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 7:11 pm

As we are on the subject of lenses, does anyone know if there is a third party LOCKING EF or Nikon lens mount available for the Ursa Minis? I know Blackmagic sells their interchangeable mounts, but they don't seem to eliminate the slight lens movement, especially when using a wireless follow focus motor. I know f.ex. Metabones sells a positive locking EF-Adapter for MFT and C7 has made locking Nikon and Canon Mounts for the Sony Venice, but I cannot find anything for the Ursa Minis.
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Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 8:40 pm

Never too late to try lenses with support for the UMP12K PL mount?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostSun Oct 18, 2020 11:00 pm

I tried to watch the URSA 12K v Canon video a few times on mute. I still have a preorder for the 12K. After I bought the URSA 4.6K I rented the C200 a few times. It's hard to take (for me) the "raw lite" from the Canon very far in the grade. Once I get the Canon to a look I feel like it stays a little gray because I can't push the color too far. I also like the grain of the URSA and the way the subject feels more integrated with the background. Canon's full frame is feeling like everything is green screened.

Not sure how the C500 can be pushed around, but I know I can get a deep rich look from the URSAs. I was attributing that to higher bit depth, something feels like it's missing from the Canon footage, wondering if that's true? Anyone else feel the same?
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostMon Oct 19, 2020 12:39 am

Ryan Earl wrote:I tried to watch the URSA 12K v Canon video a few times on mute. I still have a preorder for the 12K. After I bought the URSA 4.6K I rented the C200 a few times. It's hard to take (for me) the "raw lite" from the Canon very far in the grade. Once I get the Canon to a look I feel like it stays a little gray because I can't push the color too far. I also like the grain of the URSA and the way the subject feels more integrated with the background. Canon's full frame is feeling like everything is green screened.

Not sure how the C500 can be pushed around, but I know I can get a deep rich look from the URSAs. I was attributing that to higher bit depth, something feels like it's missing from the Canon footage, wondering if that's true? Anyone else feel the same?


Yes, I think you nailed it. I've really wanted to like the c200 the few times I've used it but the footage either looks too video-like or lacks any mojo that differentiates it from mirrorless or less expensive cameras. If the Ursa footage is treated well I think it's unbeatable, especially for the price.

The 12k has taken the Ursa platform to a new level. Every time I open up the footage in Resolve I am quite literally stunned at the detail and colour. The image and colour is very precise but still has the great film-like quality.
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Re: Ursa Mini Pro 12K is here

PostTue Oct 20, 2020 4:38 pm

rick.lang wrote:In the Wikipedia article on Airy disks, it’s noted that the human eye’s cones have a pitch of about 2.5 microns. Interesting that the BMD 12K sensor pitch is 2.2 microns so theoretically could provide better resolution than the human eye aside from the contribution in the respective image processors in the camera and the brain.


That is true but also probably irrelevant. Once you put it on a screen the comparison breaks down.
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