BMPCC un-crushed sample footage

Hi,

Since the pocket cam has been released, is there any chance we could receive some un-crushed (i.e video straight from the pocket, i.e ProRes or RAW)? The samples so far have been nice, but I'd like to see what the camera *really* produces while I wait for my pre-order to be delivered.

Thanks,
Alan

Hi,

Since the pocket cam has been released, is there any chance we could receive some un-crushed (i.e video straight from the pocket, i.e ProRes or RAW)? The samples so far have been nice, but I'd like to see what the camera *really* produces while I wait for my pre-order to be delivered.

Thanks,
BP

I second this, but not once have I seen BM respond to a request on these forums! ever! So it might fall on deaf ears.

I second this, but not once have I seen BM respond to a request on these forums! ever! So it might fall on deaf ears.

BM certainly do respond to requests.

Might help if you guys followed the forum rules and used your real names too.

jb

John, I presume you know what you are talking about, however I have not been able to find any rules besides that FAQ which looks like generic PhpBB stuff. Yes I searched too, lots of people talking about "forum rules', but no links to the actual rules. Anyways, I updated my profile. From what I did see written about the issue, yes I agree - using real names would at least cut a lot of the noise and bad behavior.

John, I presume you know what you are talking about, however I have not been able to find any rules besides that FAQ which looks like generic PhpBB stuff. Yes I searched too, lots of people talking about "forum rules', but no links to the actual rules. Anyways, I updated my profile. From what I did see written about the issue, yes I agree - using real names would at least cut a lot of the noise and bad behavior.

It's there when you sign up your account.

jb

Are you a moderator here John. Just curious.

Back to the original OP question. Anyone supply to native footage or not? Surprised BMD have not even done this. Seems we're all buying this camera in blind faith!

Are you a moderator here John. Just curious.

Back to the original OP question. Anyone supply to native footage or not? Surprised BMD have not even done this. Seems we're all buying this camera in blind faith!

No I'm not a moderator.

I'm pretty sure you'll see raw footage soon. I would release some, but to be honest, it's not easy to organise the distribution of it and I'm in the middle of a shoot.

You don't have to buy the camera on blind faith. Wait until you see what you want to see. Then buy it. Why buy it sight unseen ?

The sensor is basically the same as the BMCC, so we already have a good idea of what it can do.

jb

I second this, but not once have I seen BM respond to a request on these forums! ever! So it might fall on deaf ears.

BM certainly do respond to requests.

Might help if you guys followed the forum rules and used your real names too.

jb

I've not seen any responses from BM on any of these forums apart from Christine saying she doesn't know a lot, that's not a go at her, just that it's never anything official in response to anything.

I must have missed the part about my actual name, otherwise i would have given it (Richard Oakes) Darkfable is my video company name, which to me is more important in this environment. Doesn't everyone just click yes without reading the conditions anyway? I thought that was common practice :p

And I guess it is easy for you to think that BM have good communication as you are in direct contact with them. But to anyone else it it pretty obvious there is some serious communication flaws between BM and their customers. And sadly it seems to be painting BM in a very bad light when it could quite easily be remedied.

Not trying to complain, just saying it as I and many others see it.

I must have missed the part about my actual name, otherwise i would have given it (Richard Oakes) Darkfable is my video company name, which to me is more important in this environment.

Just put your full name in your sig. They are cool with that.

I must have missed the part about my actual name, otherwise i would have given it (Richard Oakes) Darkfable is my video company name, which to me is more important in this environment.

Just put your full name in your sig. They are cool with that.

Like this?

John (or anyone who can asnwer this),

Didn't I read somewhere that the Pocket Cam won't shoot RAW until future firmware updates?

John (or anyone who can asnwer this),

Didn't I read somewhere that the Pocket Cam won't shoot RAW until future firmware updates?

As far as I know this is correct. Although I'm not sure if this has been officially stated!

I must have missed the part about my actual name, otherwise i would have given it (Richard Oakes) Darkfable is my video company name, which to me is more important in this environment.

Just put your full name in your sig. They are cool with that.

Like this?

Yep. Christine told me that was fine.

John (or anyone who can asnwer this),

Didn't I read somewhere that the Pocket Cam won't shoot RAW until future firmware updates?

As far as I know this is correct. Although I'm not sure if this has been officially stated!

Well... that kinda defeats the entire purpose of buying one. At least, until the firmware is released; and who knows when that might be?

John (or anyone who can asnwer this),

Didn't I read somewhere that the Pocket Cam won't shoot RAW until future firmware updates?

As far as I know this is correct. Although I'm not sure if this has been officially stated!

Well... that kinda defeats the entire purpose of buying one. At least, until the firmware is released; and who knows when that might be?

I know, I would have said that goes against product description laws as it clearly states that this camera shoots cinemaDNGRAW in the product description. Not ,coming soon with cinema DNG RAW via firmware at an unknown date.

Are you a moderator here John. Just curious.

Back to the original OP question. Anyone supply to native footage or not? Surprised BMD have not even done this. Seems we're all buying this camera in blind faith!

No I'm not a moderator.

I'm pretty sure you'll see raw footage soon. I would release some, but to be honest, it's not easy to organise the distribution of it and I'm in the middle of a shoot.

You don't have to buy the camera on blind faith. Wait until you see what you want to see. Then buy it. Why buy it sight unseen ?

The sensor is basically the same as the BMCC, so we already have a good idea of what it can do.

jb

Darkfable>

John seems to have raw footage from the Pocket already, and RAW is mentioned even in the manuals here:
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/media/5 ... y_2013.pdf

So I don't really see any reason we should doubt that RAW's coming in on Day 1 with the Pocket as soon as it gets into consumers hands. It's already "Shipping" so I guess thats why John mentioned he'd be able to share the raw footage with us if he wasn't busy with his shoot!

Are you a moderator here John. Just curious.

Back to the original OP question. Anyone supply to native footage or not? Surprised BMD have not even done this. Seems we're all buying this camera in blind faith!

No I'm not a moderator.

I'm pretty sure you'll see raw footage soon.<b><u> I would release some, but to be honest, it's not easy to organise the distribution of it and I'm in the middle of a shoot.</u></b>

You don't have to buy the camera on blind faith. Wait until you see what you want to see. Then buy it. Why buy it sight unseen ?

The sensor is basically the same as the BMCC, so we already have a good idea of what it can do.

jb

Darkfable>

John seems to have raw footage from the Pocket already, and RAW is mentioned even in the manuals here:
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/media/5 ... y_2013.pdf

So I don't really see any reason we should doubt that RAW's coming in on Day 1 with the Pocket as soon as it gets into consumers hands. It's already "Shipping" so I guess thats why John mentioned he'd be able to share the raw footage with us if he wasn't busy with his shoot!

We know the specs STATE that the cam will shoot raw, but I've read that it won't until future firmware updates.

I could be wrong here - I don't remember where I read that - but I think John Brawley's name was mentioned in the article.

John, can you confirm this or not?

Are you a moderator here John. Just curious.

Back to the original OP question. Anyone supply to native footage or not? Surprised BMD have not even done this. Seems we're all buying this camera in blind faith!

No I'm not a moderator.

I'm pretty sure you'll see raw footage soon.<b><u> I would release some, but to be honest, it's not easy to organise the distribution of it and I'm in the middle of a shoot.</u></b>

You don't have to buy the camera on blind faith. Wait until you see what you want to see. Then buy it. Why buy it sight unseen ?

The sensor is basically the same as the BMCC, so we already have a good idea of what it can do.

jb

Darkfable>

John seems to have raw footage from the Pocket already, and RAW is mentioned even in the manuals here:
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/media/5 ... y_2013.pdf

So I don't really see any reason we should doubt that RAW's coming in on Day 1 with the Pocket as soon as it gets into consumers hands. It's already "Shipping" so I guess thats why John mentioned he'd be able to share the raw footage with us if he wasn't busy with his shoot!

All the reps at the july Event said it won't ship with RAW. I think John was talking about releasing the raw pro res as in ungraded and uncompressed footage for download.

Yes the manuals and product page says it shoots RAW but the reps just before launch said it won't. This is why I think their communication is so bad. Because they are false advertising a product and many customers are buying on the basis that it ships with RAW. As far as know this is unlawful practice and needs to be fully and officially addressed.

But if John is right in stating that BM listens to the statements on this forum then we should expect them to clarify officially what the situation is pretty snappy. But as we all know by now that won't happen because blackmagic don't actually seem to listen or respond to our concerns.

Hi Richard O.: BMD staff such as Kristian Lam and a few others occasionally post replies here, in addition to Christine. I agree that they don't appear here often, but they do post sometimes.

-

Compressed RAW won't be shipping with the camera and will be added later.

jb

Compressed RAW won't be shipping with the camera and will be added later.

jb

Is ''compressed RAW'' the same as ''lossless CinemaDNG RAW'', or are they completely different things?

Well... that kinda defeats the entire purpose of buying one. At least, until the firmware is released; and who knows when that might be?

I suspect even when the raw firmware upgrade is released most people will shoot ProRes most of the time on the BMPCC. In film mode the ProRes from the current camera is very flexible, and gives a lot of the benefit of raw, but with a much simpler workflow. My plugin helps with this, and my demo video shows what I mean.
See here for more info.

I still think advertising it as shooting in RAW on the product page and then shipping without RAW capabilities is false advertising, and therefore against the law! Especially knowing how long BM take to release firmware updates.
I think this is something that needs to be addressed as not every person that ordered this camera will be checking the forums for posts by jb to ensure their new purchase does what the product page says it does right next to the buy now tab.

I hate to stress a point, but what BM are doing is esentually Illegal as the product does not (at the point of shipping ) shoot RAW! And as far as I'm aware no official statement has said anything otherwise.

Is ''compressed RAW'' the same as ''lossless CinemaDNG RAW'', or are they completely different things?

"compressed" doesn't mean "lossy", if that is what you fear. Pure, uncompressed raw data would be to much even for the fastest available sdxh uhs-1 cards, so they have to implement some sort of fast, lossless compression. It wouldn't make any sense to store raw data with lossy compression...

"compressed" doesn't mean "lossy", if that is what you fear. Pure, uncompressed raw data would be to much even for the fastest available sdxh uhs-1 cards, so they have to implement some sort of fast, lossless compression. It wouldn't make any sense to store raw data with lossy compression...

It is worth pointing out that the page for the Pocket Camera refers to "lossless CinemaDNG RAW", whereas the one for the 4k camera refers to "visually lossless compressed CinemaDNG RAW".

Visually lossless is not mathematically lossless. What constitutes visually lossless, well, that's a much longer discussion!

Both the Sony F65/55/5 and the RED Epic/RED One use lossy compression on raw image data, so I disagree that it "would't make any sense".

"compressed" doesn't mean "lossy", if that is what you fear. Pure, uncompressed raw data would be to much even for the fastest available sdxh uhs-1 cards, so they have to implement some sort of fast, lossless compression. It wouldn't make any sense to store raw data with lossy compression...

It is worth pointing out that the page for the Pocket Camera refers to "lossless CinemaDNG RAW", whereas the one for the 4k camera refers to "visually lossless compressed CinemaDNG RAW".

Visually lossless is not mathematically lossless. What constitutes visually lossless, well, that's a much longer discussion!

Both the Sony F65/55/5 and the RED Epic/RED One use lossy compression on raw image data, so I disagree that it "would't make any sense".

So what's the difference between visually lossless and lossy and how does it affect image quality and flexibility in post?

So what's the difference between visually lossless and lossy and how does it affect image quality and flexibility in post?

Both ain't well defined terms, so there's no measurable difference (you tend to ask to put a scale on things that can't be measured...).

"Lossy" is any compression that can't be undone without loosing some kind of information. Some people even call a process lossy if only metadata is lost...

"Visually lossless" is any compression that only affects the images in a way you can't detect visually. But the differences may get noticed after grading etc.

Don't get to hung up on the lossy/lossless discussion though; already debayering is a (very!) lossy process (as are color space transformations), and even the A/D-sampling is in a way lossy... Generally speaking you should try to maintain as much resolution and color depth as practically possible, but at some point you'll have to do the lossy compression anyway.