BMPCC - Black Bears in the Himalayas - lens recommendations

Hi all,

I am going to shoot a documentary on black bears in the Indian Himalayas. I am fairly confident I can work out the rigging of the camera BMPCC in my case but really need some advice on lenses. Starting from zero lenses I would really appreciate your recommendations. I think I need -

Wide angle zoom

Mid range zoom

Telephoto zoom (IS important) - want the option of a really long lens here allowing for BMPCC crop factor 800mm equivalent or longer

2 "interview" primes - need close up and mid shot primes

Would like the zooms at minimum to have a small overlap in focal length.

My emphasis would definitely to be spending the money on no compromise zooms as I can't regulate the distance of my "performers" and then to find a good compromise budget wise on a couple of Primes for interviews (of which there will not be many).
Where lenses have IS I would like to be able to retain that function if possible as a lot of my shooting will be on a long lens for obvious reasons (bears...).

If your lens recomendation requires a mft - x adaptor please give your recommendation on the appropriate / best adaptor as well and whether the combination would allow you to retain IS if the lens allows it

I am also interested in maintaining the broadest best lens compatibility possible for future camera bodies but that is not a primary consideration.

I would really appreciate your recommendations. Also interested to connect with anyone who has used BMCC camera for wildlife documentary work on your experiences and recommendations.

Thanks!

Plan your shoot with a camera that's available. There are very few bmpcc in the wild and probably hundreds or thousands prebookings to fulfill for BM with an unknown manufacturing rate. You don't know if you get your camera tomorrow or in the end of 2014, you don't now if the sound is OK or if it can handle Himalayan temperatures. No body knows when DNG firmware is ready.

Apart from that a Panasonic 20mm f1.7 would be a good start and maybe a Canon or Zeiss s16 zoom would get you covered for pro work in the Himalayans. Don't get eaten grizzly man.

Plan your shoot with a camera that's available. There are very few bmpcc in the wild and probably hundreds or thousands prebookings to fulfill for BM with an unknown manufacturing rate. You don't know if you get your camera tomorrow or in the end of 2014, you don't now if the sound is OK or if it can handle Himalayan temperatures. No body knows when DNG firmware is ready.

Apart from that a Panasonic 20mm f1.7 would be a good start and maybe a Canon or Zeiss s16 zoom would get you covered for pro work in the Himalayans. Don't get eaten grizzly man.

Hi Ludvig,

Thanks for getting back to me. Having worked for a few wildlife production companies and making films on their terms I am in no hurry to film a few docs that have been on the backburner for the last 10 years. It will be next spring before I have a chance to get out there anyhow. However given that my background was first as a soundrecordist (I would definitely not use the onboard sound) and then producer/director I would like to work out my kit and get practising with my cinematography skills a while before I go out so for me if the camera lands at the beginning of next year that would still work fine for me schedule wise.

I am most interested in the best telephoto zoom / adaptor (if required) solution for this camera and could probably work out the rest from other posts on this forum but other suggestions are more than welcome for the whole range of lenses. Any specific recommendations with the canon / zeiss lenses you mentioned?

Best,
Tom

If you are looking for the highest quality and range in a zoom lens, I would suggest a PL mount adapter and a Super 16 zoom.

Popular choices are from Canon, Zeiss and Angenieux:
Canon 7-63mm
Canon 8-64mm
Zeiss 11-110mm
Angenieux 7-81mm

There are a few others too. Some of these lenses have extremely high quality optics, at times rivaling primes.

This page has a nice list of candidates - http://www.cinematechnic.com/resources/ ... er-16.html

If you are looking for the highest quality and range in a zoom lens, I would suggest a PL mount adapter and a Super 16 zoom.

Popular choices are from Canon, Zeiss and Angenieux:
Canon 7-63mm
Canon 8-64mm
Zeiss 11-110mm
Angenieux 7-81mm

There are a few others too. Some of these lenses have extremely high quality optics, at times rivaling primes.

This page has a nice list of candidates - http://www.cinematechnic.com/resources/ ... er-16.html

Hi Azriel,

I know this has been covered frequently but with S16 lenses what is the the crop factor on a S16 sensor - 0? As the 1.3-1.4 crop factor with mft lenses is actually a benefit for long lens wildlife productions. Also I need a real long lens for some of the shots I intend to take equivalent to 800+mm without crop factor. the closest lens in the link you sent is the optex 14.5-480mm but without the crop factor this is not long enough - also whilst I don't want to compromise $30k on the 2nd hand market is a stretch - more so when it does not fully meet my needs on the telephoto end. What is the best no compromise option that will take me to 800mm equivalent. For the mid range zoom your recommendations are much appreciated.

Thanks,
T

What's your budget range for lens(es)?

-

What's your budget range for lens(es)?

-

Hi Peter,

Thanks for getting in touch. Whatever I need to get the job done well is probably to vague... It would be great to put a kit together for around £5000 - $7500 approx - happy to buy 2nd hand lenses where possible. But will basically spend what is necessary to get exceptional results - the shoot will take 9 months of my life so don't want to cut corners. However if spending in the 10's of thousands then would want glass that for future projects I could easily migrate to larger sensors or it would make sense to consider the BM 4k camera with appropriate glass at this point in time I guess. Ultimately I will need 120fps for my work so just don't want to invest substantially in glass that will not play nice with future sensor sizes.

Thanks,
T

Hi Tom,

Perhaps you should avoid super 16 glass if you're interested in scaling to other sensor sizes in the future. S16 lenses aren't designed to cover sensors larger than the pocket camera.

I beleive that super 16 is a really unique format, especially for run-and-gun and small productions. It's still cinematic, but much easier to control depth of field. IMO some of the best lens values available are for used S16 glass.

Especially because you'll likely want relatively long telephoto, smooth zooming, and parfocal capability, you should give a high-quality 2/3" B4 mount broadcast/ENG HD lens (one with a built-in optical extender/doubler) -- and a B4-to-MFT lens mount adapter -- careful consideration*.

Related information here:
http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/?p=984

*When I say careful, I mean thoroughly test on borrowed/rented gear before you buy anything "expensive".

-

Can I come? Doco sounds amazing!

If you are looking for the highest quality and range in a zoom lens, I would suggest a PL mount adapter and a Super 16 zoom.

Popular choices are from Canon, Zeiss and Angenieux:
Canon 7-63mm
Canon 8-64mm
Zeiss 11-110mm
Angenieux 7-81mm

There are a few others too. Some of these lenses have extremely high quality optics, at times rivaling primes.

This page has a nice list of candidates - http://www.cinematechnic.com/resources/ ... er-16.html

Hi Azriel,

I know this has been covered frequently but with S16 lenses what is the the crop factor on a S16 sensor - 0? As the 1.3-1.4 crop factor with mft lenses is actually a benefit for long lens wildlife productions. Also I need a real long lens for some of the shots I intend to take equivalent to 800+mm without crop factor. the closest lens in the link you sent is the optex 14.5-480mm but without the crop factor this is not long enough - also whilst I don't want to compromise $30k on the 2nd hand market is a stretch - more so when it does not fully meet my needs on the telephoto end. What is the best no compromise option that will take me to 800mm equivalent. For the mid range zoom your recommendations are much appreciated.

Thanks,
T

You have a decent budget to buy a quality zoom in Super16 that will do justice to the ambitious project. I'm not sure you have a good picture of the crop factor on the BMPCC (forgive me if I'm wrong). If you feel you need the field of view of an 800mm lens on a full-frame sensor (I think that is what you meant when you said "without the crop factor"), you can achieve that on the BMPCC with a 278mm lens with the 2.88x crop factor. That's still an expensive long zoom for example if you put Canon's CN-E 30-300mm zooms. And renting for nine months would possibly cost more than an outright purchase. That would give you a lens that worked on other sizes of sensors but its a lot of money new or used.

To stay within your budget, it seems you may want to stick to S16 zooms that will be lighter to carry and mount on your tripod. But it seems like a difficult spec to meet when you need something that will give you the reach of 800mm effectively. Peter's suggestion about converting a B4 ENG lens could do it I believe but read Marco Solorio's excellent recommendations first that he referenced.

As an aside, that project might really benefit from the higher resolution image of the BMCC EF or BMCC MFT camera. Your deliverable is likely still going to be 1080p video, but beginning with the 2.5K sensor and doing in-camera downscaling to 1080p ProRes 4:2:2 HQ may be fine. Even better if you could handle raw 2.5K but I think you'll have an enormous amount of footage and that could preclude using raw. The crop factor there is 2.28x, so you would need a 350mm lens to get 800mm effectively. That 30-300mm Canon zoom would give you 684mm effectively and that may do the trick. Would be great if your production budget could include that lens even if you were forced to sell it afterwards or get a rental agreement that fits your budget for consideration of a credit in the documentary, such as Canon CN-E 30-300mm supplied by Canon Canada... There could be good public relations for Canon or a rental agency and since you are not in a rush, take time to investigate those options.

Rick Lang
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

"Even better if you could handle raw 2.5K but I think you'll have an enormous amount of footage and that could preclude using raw."


Hi Rick,

Thanks for coming in on this. Will get back to lenses with my next post. But your comments above re. amount of footage prompt me to be very desirous of a pre-record buffer. For my kind of project there is a lot of waiting around for things to happen but you want to be rolling when they do happen - it would be a massive benefit to have a pre-record buffer - I know it is unlikely on any of the current BM hardware and not sure if it has been discused elsewhere in the forum but it would share a place at the top of my wish list along with audio meters... Anyone else wanting the the pre-record buffer?

Best,
Tom

Do NOT bring any meat-based lenses.

There is no crop factor for the Super 16 lenses being discussed here. They are ideally suited to the sensor size of the pocket cinema camera, and yet another reason why I detest the use of *crop factor*. It leads to ignorant assumptions and inferences about lenses not being appropriate when they couldn't be more appropriate for this camera.

I would say this though. Any camera with a rolling shutter doesn't take well to extremely long lenses like the kinds you're thinking of. You'll certainly need an awesome tripod that is likely to cost you a lot more than your camera and lenses. I mean that sincerely.

One other option is to use a long HD 2/3" eng style zoom with an adaptor made by a company like abekas that gives you the super 16 coverage. You could then get a phenomenally large range zoom, often with a doubler built in that can then cover a lot of ground and be added or taken away very quickly. Natural History guys have been using these setups on Super 16 for many years and though the ENG 2/3" lenses aren't as amazing as a lot of the cine lenses, they let you get the shot and that's what's important.

If you're looking at still lenses you could look at the Olympus SHG 4/3 zooms with an active 4/3-->m4/3 adaptor.

They make a 14-35 and 35-100 F2 which are lovely and a 150 mmF2 prime. I own all of these and they are pretty special lenses. They're also weatherprrof and you could easily shoot in torrential rain without the lenses being affected..... Olympus also do a nice 90-250 F2.8 which should work as well, but it's pretty $$$$

You could also do well with cheaper consumer panasonic lumix lenses which have the added advantage of OIS which will help with the rolling shutter. They won't be especially fast though. The 12-35 and the 35-100 F2.8 lenses are pretty nice.

jb

There is no crop factor for the Super 16 lenses being discussed here. They are ideally suited to the sensor size of the pocket cinema camera, and yet another reason why I detest the use of *crop factor*. It leads to ignorant assumptions and inferences about lenses not being appropriate when they couldn't be more appropriate for this camera.


I would say this though. Any camera with a rolling shutter doesn't take well to extremely long lenses like the kinds you're thinking of. You'll certainly need an awesome tripod that is likely to cost you a lot more than your camera and lenses. I mean that sincerely.


jb

Sorry my background is not as a cinematographer. Just to clarify the principle - i am sure it has been covered ad nauseam in other threads - I understand that some lenses will not adequately cover the sensor but all lenses will have their focal length multiplied by 2.88 with bmpcc. Also that the sensor size of the bmpcc uses an optimal amount of S16 lens "real estate" whereas the bmpcc with a 35 mm lens would only utilize the S16 physical equivalent of glass "real estate"?

Tripod is an issue for sure from the point of view of weight - I will not always be in a hide and the mountains are truly tough from a hiking point of view. When you say a good tripod - the rig itself will be quite lightweight so should I still match the size of the head to the weight of the rig or would you advise going for a tripod designed for a heavier rig? What is the best option for a lightweight rig with long lenses - the lightest o'connor head a mid range vinten? Also how serious of an issue would the rolling shutter be with a good tripod? Should I scratch the idea of the bmpcc altogether and go with the global shutter of the 4k? Then I would have to go into EF compatible lenses instead but with a smaller "focal length multiplier" (correct terminology?) I would be looking at more expensive lenses for the telephoto end again... This - http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/ - helped me understand cmos vs. ccd and rolling shutter vs global shutter and other artifacts better - for the reference of others.

This video about typical CMOS rolling shutter artifacts -- and how to minimize their effects -- is 4 years old, but many of the techniques described in it are still relevant:



For example, as noted in the video at 3:38, when following (panning) the bears, encourage them to move from right to left.

Note: The BMCC & BMPCC rolling shutter artifacts are far less than what most CMOS sensors had 4 years ago!

-

Sorry my background is not as a cinematographer. Just to clarify the principle - i am sure it has been covered ad nauseam in other threads - I understand that some lenses will not adequately cover the sensor but all lenses will have their focal length multiplied by 2.88 with bmpcc. Also that the sensor size of the bmpcc uses an optimal amount of S16 lens "real estate" whereas the bmpcc with a 35 mm lens would only utilize the S16 physical equivalent of glass "real estate"?

You only need to use a "crop factor" if your point of reference and the lens you're comparing to is the 135 format.

Otherwise it's not relevant.

Tripod is an issue for sure from the point of view of weight - I will not always be in a hide and the mountains are truly tough from a hiking point of view. When you say a good tripod - the rig itself will be quite lightweight so should I still match the size of the head to the weight of the rig or would you advise going for a tripod designed for a heavier rig? What is the best option for a lightweight rig with long lenses - the lightest o'connor head a mid range vinten? Also how serious of an issue would the rolling shutter be with a good tripod? Should I scratch the idea of the bmpcc altogether and go with the global shutter of the 4k?

if you're up at 800mm, then any micro shake will cause you to see RS artefacts on the Pocket cinema camera.

A moderate wind would be enough to cause you problems. You're in a lose lose situation though because mass is what you need and you want the lightest thing possible

Depending on how portable you want to be, you could have some wind breaks. I've had grips make these up for me before. A light aluminium box frame with hinges that can be carried and unfolded and popped into the wind. You use a shade cloth and this will greatly reduce the amount of wind hitting the camera.

Here's a shot of my grip Jacko resting on one.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbrawley/8852723521/

As far as tripods, I'd belloking at carbon fibre legs and a decent 100mm head for lightweigh but "good".

Sorry, but again, way more probably that you'd want to pay, but a sachtler video 18 or video 20 with CF legs would be good, and shouldn't be too hard to come by second hand.

I've got the O'Connor 1030Ds and it's awesome and is the O'Connor version of the above Sachtler heads.

Remember, tripods are format agnostic and work on any camera and don't really need to be updated every three years the way cameras are. A decent tripod should last you years and years. You also get to know your own tripod and it's "feel" and it becomes an extortion of you and your operating. Generally they also tend to hold their second hand value well. And it's not like electronics where they suddenly become "cheap" with big advances...


jb