Pocket camera?

We were told the delay of the original Blackmagic camera shipping was caused by contaminated sensors.
What's the cause of this one camera here, one camera there shipping on the pocket camera? Has there been any reason stated by Blackmagic that I'm unaware of? Just wondering

What delay are you talking about? From BMDs point of view the production is running, cameras are shipping. They didn't pre-produce ten thousands of cameras and stockpile them for the "great day", like apple does. At the moment the cameras are only trickling into the dryed out market, but obviously there's nothing preventing that trickle from swelling during the next weeks. Compared to the original BMCCs desasterous market entrance the Pocket is doing fine so far, yet of course you can expect a much greater interest in this second camera - it's considerably cheaper, and doesn't have to prove as much as the 2k5 model - so we can not expect the manufacturer to work through all preorders within the next couple of weeks. It will probably be spring before the Pocket CC will be available off the shelves.

If you compare it to the BMCC chaos, anything outside of that will look pretty damn good... It's hard for me to believe that BMD planned on only shipping one camera each to dealers while they could pretty much bank on a good number of preorders, but maybe I'm wrong. I guess they've mastered the art of selling what they haven't made (yet).

It's hard for me to believe that BMD planned on only shipping one camera each to dealers while they could pretty much bank on a good number of preorders

Every mass production of complex product goes through a number of stages, starting at a limited number of items produced, testing the outcome, then gradually increasing the numbers while still controlling quality. BMD didn't plan to produce less items than possible, but they (wisely) planned not to rush the production either. We wouldn't get our cameras faster if they had to recall huge numbers of flawed cameras because they went to fast. It's the same with any new TV set or CPU modell, we just don't notice there because these products usually debut at insane prices, effectively preventing high volume orders until the production capacities are maxed.

I guess they've mastered the art of selling what they haven't made (yet).

They (BMD) didn't sell you anything, the vendors did. Yet you could also say that customers mastered the art of buying products that haven't even been built.

They (BMD) didn't sell you anything, the vendors did. Yet you could also say that customers mastered the art of buying products that haven't even been built.

So I guess it's all the customers' fault then, huh?

They (BMD) didn't sell you anything, the vendors did

He didnt say the sold to him, they surely DID sell (even if only to vendors, which is lame of you to imply, but .. Ok) which would still make the point valid.

Try again

They (BMD) didn't sell you anything, the vendors did. Yet you could also say that customers mastered the art of buying products that haven't even been built.

Seriously???

I'm shocked, BMD has even mastered the ability to trick some customers into thinking they aren't in the business of selling a product They really are changing the game.

The vendors are selling a product that BMD has created, and put on the market for customers to buy! Without a vendor people would have bought direct, and there at NAB, what exactly was BMD doing? I must be crazy, but it sure looked like selling to me. At the end of the day, the customers money keeps BMD in the game.

It's hard for me to believe that BMD planned on only shipping one camera each to dealers while they could pretty much bank on a good number of preorders

Every mass production of complex product goes through a number of stages, starting at a limited number of items produced, testing the outcome, then gradually increasing the numbers while still controlling quality. BMD didn't plan to produce less items than possible, but they (wisely) planned not to rush the production either. We wouldn't get our cameras faster if they had to recall huge numbers of flawed cameras because they went to fast. It's the same with any new TV set or CPU modell, we just don't notice there because these products usually debut at insane prices, effectively preventing high volume orders until the production capacities are maxed.

I guess they've mastered the art of selling what they haven't made (yet).

They (BMD) didn't sell you anything, the vendors did. Yet you could also say that customers mastered the art of buying products that haven't even been built.

How much are BMD paying you to act as an apologetic?

It never fails (such is the nature of the web) . . . you come looking for a fight, you'll likely get one.

What I'm wondering is, in the months ahead as the pipeline fills up and most people are busy shooting something with their new camera . . . where will the nay-sayers go? Is it the people or just some kind of disappointment phenomenon that "takes over our minds?"

Just say'in.

Just wanted to stir the pot, obviously worked, always works.

It's funny to see how people order a camera no one has even seen footage of and then come to the forum to rant about what was actually their own free willed decision. Of course it's always the big bad companies who are to blame. Yeah, and everyone who doesn't chime in has to be paid by the company or otherwise illegit...

Please remember that freedom of speech also applies to people who don't share your point of view!

Just wanted to stir the pot, obviously worked, always works.

Ah...trolling...gr8 fun!

Just wanted to stir the pot, obviously worked, always works.

It's funny to see how people order a camera no one has even seen footage of and then come to the forum to rant about what was actually their own free willed decision. Of course it's always the big bad companies who are to blame. Yeah, and everyone who doesn't chime in has to be paid by the company or otherwise illegit...

Please remember that freedom of speech also applies to people who don't share your point of view!

It's funny how someone admits to trolling, in an supposed attempt to stir the pot, but then ends up getting sensitive posting about freedom of speech.

Obviously you missed the irony.

Ah...trolling...gr8 fun!

Yeah, Marc, I've seen a lot of this around here lately - thought i'd give it a try myself! And wow, what a fun it's been! But please, don't feed me

It's hard for me to believe that BMD planned on only shipping one camera each to dealers while they could pretty much bank on a good number of preorders, but maybe I'm wrong.

It's exactly what they planned to do, and it's exactly the same thing they did for the BMCC. When starting a new product line they build in small numbers initially as they shake out the new product and make sure that the quality is good and there aren't any nasty surprises in the manufacturing process itself.



jb

. . . When starting a new product line they build in small numbers initially as they shake out the new product and make sure that the quality is good and there aren't any nasty surprises in the manufacturing process itself.
jb

Or, if there are, so that a few cameras have to be returned (if the fix can't be done via firmware), as opposed to hundreds (or thousands) of units . . . Which, in my view would be reason for the hounds to bay!

They're doing it exactly right . . . The same as many others in this and other industries (but you'll never convince a know-it-all otherwise).

They're doing it exactly right . . .

IMHO, so far, this has been a textbook example of how NOT to roll out new cameras.

Mhood, IMHO I agree.

I asked the question about this cameras shipment here, because dealers do not have a clue. Ive heard, Sept, Oct, Nov, and some have even said first of the year on some orders. I thought there would be more clarity this time around, my bad!

I'm at fault for thinking the sensor issues with the BMCC was the only reason for it's troubled shipping, I'm at fault for not knowing trickle was standard shipping practice.

Shipping low quantities to use early customers as testers is common practice, even though, in an ideal world I guess we would all prefer to get fully tested products before they are sent out.
Now, I think they would have prevented some disappointment by communicating a bit more like "we plan on starting to ship the first models in July" or "we are currently working on implementing raw on the Pocket cam and have good hopes that it will work but it won't be ready for the July release for sure".
It still looks odd to me to see them sell raw for this camera on their website where it's actually not implemented. But I'm probably from a different communication culture?

Shipping low quantities to use early customers as testers is common practice, even though, in an ideal world I guess we would all prefer to get fully tested products before they are sent out.
Now, I think they would have prevented some disappointment by communicating a bit more like "we plan on starting to ship the first models in July" or "we are currently working on implementing raw on the Pocket cam and have good hopes that it will work but it won't be ready for the July release for sure".

I understand low quantity shipping, and the reason for it, but whats considered low quantity at BMD? It seems that they sent out something like 15 to 30 cameras the first go with the pocket camera and most of those are being used as in store demo's so how much feedback can the be had with in store demo's? Your right about preventing disappointment by communicating the exact way this would play out.

It still looks odd to me to see them sell raw for this camera on their website where it's actually not implemented. But I'm probably from a different communication culture?

Odd to me also, I swear I saw a video that featured a BMD rep saying the camera would ship with RAW.

I fear they only way to release the cameras in larger quantities from the beginning would involve more in-house testing and thus result in an even later release date.

Advertising RAW on the official product page without even a footnote that this feature is not ready yet is not only unprofessional, i'd even call it deceptive.

Advertising RAW on the official product page without even a footnote that this feature is not ready yet is not only unprofessional, i'd even call it deceptive.

I'd call it a known fact.
It's been stated repeatedly, beginning with interviews at NAB, during launch.
To pretend or state otherwise is simply disingenuous.

Advertising RAW on the official product page without even a footnote that this feature is not ready yet is not only unprofessional, i'd even call it deceptive.

I'd call it a known fact.
It's been stated repeatedly, beginning with interviews at NAB, during launch.
To pretend or state otherwise is simply disingenuous.

And yet, through all that, their web developer somehow left the "not yet ready" note off of the webpage.
Not everyone is a camera forum nerd like us, not everyone went to NAB, if you went to the official webpage to learn about the camera and nowhere else, you wouldn't know it's ProRes only, and customers shouldn't be expected to have to go researching beyond the product's product page to learn exactly what features the product actually has.
Not the imaginary ones.

My coworker was about to order the pocket the other day until I mentioned to him that raw wasn't implemented. He decided to pass. I wouldn't have expected him to have known this footnote, but glad I was able to point it out to him.

When you get the camera, there is actually a note in the box letting you know RAW isn't available. They could have been a lot more up front about it but we will be getting it soon.

When you get the camera, there is actually a note in the box letting you know RAW isn't available. They could have been a lot more up front about it but we will be getting it soon.

Well A) it's a little late to be telling someone who didn't know that, now that they already have the camera in their possesion, and
B) and I mean this in all seriousness, will we be getting it soon? It's now almost a month past when I thought I would be getting it.

Advertising RAW on the official product page without even a footnote that this feature is not ready yet is not only unprofessional, i'd even call it deceptive.

I'd call it a known fact.
It's been stated repeatedly, beginning with interviews at NAB, during launch.
To pretend or state otherwise is simply disingenuous.

My coworker was about to order the pocket the other day until I mentioned to him that raw wasn't implemented. He decided to pass. I wouldn't have expected him to have known this footnote, but glad I was able to point it out to him.

Yes but he probably won't be glad when he figures out that it would have RAW by the time he got one . . . Based upon, "he was about to order . . ."

Back to your comment on my statement: I agree, you are correct, in that there is simply no accounting for the pitfalls of the hopelessly uninformed.

All kidding aside, you and the others that said so are right . . . the delay in RAW should be appropriately noted somewhere on the BM website where they advertise the product.

I don't know how those things work in your countries, but in Switzerland if you buy something that obviously doesn't correspond to its advertisement, you can get full refund.
Let's face it: it takes 10' max to any webmaster on a bad hair Monday morning to add that footnote to their web page, why aren't they doing so?
Also, if they manage to add raw they should probably be able to also add audio metering, proper battery level and decent audio, no?

Advertising RAW on the official product page without even a footnote that this feature is not ready yet is not only unprofessional, i'd even call it deceptive.

I'd call it a known fact.
It's been stated repeatedly, beginning with interviews at NAB, during launch.
To pretend or state otherwise is simply disingenuous.

In this video, the guy (Richard) wearing a BMD shirt, who appears to be a BMD employee says what? More than once Just go ahead and FF to 01:34... what does he say?

In this video, the guy (Richard) wearing a BMD shirt, who appears to be a BMD employee says what? More than once Just go ahead and FF to 01:34... what does he say?

Hmmm interesting. Wonder where BMD stand with an ACCC enquiry.

I dont really care when I get my camera, but what I care about is the complete lack of communication from BMD on this latest shipping saga.

In its most simplest forms...a lot of people at BMD, if not all of them will by now know how many BMPCC's have been actually made, packaged and shipped out across the globe and to what countries and distributors. They will also know about the demand and how long it will take to make the next batch of 10,000 cameras. There will be boats/plains/trains right now shipping these cameras around the globe...BMD know how many, where, and when.

Again I dont care if it is only one camera being shipped here, a dozen there...it is the fact that we are not being told and BMD are choosing not to tell us..and they are reading these forums, seeing peoples frustrations and still choosing not to respond with anything meaningful.

It's almost like they think "Oh no, we are only going to be able to ship 10 cameras this month, we are best off not telling anyone"

If people were told solid facts about shipment quantities and dates which BMD must know by now a lot of the confusion, moaning and constant emails and phone calls to resellers would cease!

I'll address the RAW question first.

As of shipment of the camera, the RAW feature is not yet there, but will be there in a firmware update.

Secondly,
As for numbers of cameras shipping or manufacturing statics, we do not discuss those. However, if you do have questions about shipping by our distributors, speak with your resellers and they can provide with more information.

The camera has been delayed in Japan until October and also has been removed from Amazon.com and co.jp.

http://behindtheslate.com/?p=293

However, if you do have questions about shipping by our distributors, speak with your resellers and they can provide with more information.

Wow, I like that one- If you're having an issue receiving your pocket camera, it's obviously a shipping issue coming from your reseller, not BM, so go ask your reseller whats going on.

Here, I'll save you some time-

Me- "Hey BHPhoto, where's my camera?"
BH- "Oh, I don't know, BlackMagic hasn't told us anything. You should ask them."

Me- "Wait, who's on first?"

Beating up BM and distributors won't "hurry" the camera along. I ordered my BMPCC late, from a local SF distributor of all BM products, as well another pro audio and video lines. They are saying camera should be in late Aug. to mid Sept. I can wait -- it will arrive when I,least expect it to. As for Raw, ProRes is why I got the camera, along with its form factor. I have hauled large and small cameras around, from 3/4 Umatic rigs to DVCam to a Nikon V1. After using the V1 for a concert shoot, discovered I like hauling less and lighter equipment around. Getting ProRes from a camera,only a little bigger than a V1 is great in its own right. To add Raw capability later, a bonus!

I ordered the morning of the announcement. I'm 3rd in line with a local shop here in Texas, and my reseller has constantly told me they have no info on when they will receive a shipment beyond the one camera they have received.

Taking everything of the past into consideration makes me think late August to September is very hopeful for someone who ordered the camera late. Its the 21st of August, Just way too many early orders that have not been filled out there.

I want my camera yesterday, and I do not think asking for information on the matter is out of bounds.
Where I come from you expect to get what you pay for or solid information as to when you will, and you ask questions when you do not get either of those two things.

I'll address the RAW question first.

As of shipment of the camera, the RAW feature is not yet there, but will be there in a firmware update.

Secondly,
As for numbers of cameras shipping or manufacturing statics, we do not discuss those. However, if you do have questions about shipping by our distributors, speak with your resellers and they can provide with more information.

Thanks for that Tony.

ETA on raw update?

Also, I had a question about shipping of my camera, and BMD told them three different things culminating in "It'll get there when it gets there". Then it turned up the next day... Not sure why you can't communicate a little more?

You both have a valid pont, I am being very optimistic, or my dealer is? Give everything I am reading, either it will take several more months, or a different shipping strategy is being used by BM, with a quicker ramp up than the 2.5K camera had. Hard to tell, but 3rd in line, i would think you should have your camera by now! But the bottom line is, it comes when it gets here...

I do not have the ETA for the RAW feature at this time but we will let you know the closer we get to having an official release for it.

As far as the confusion about your delivery date, I'm sorry to hear there wasn't a clearer answer given. I will take note of this info and pass it along.

I'm not sure a clearer answer can be given when the distribution companies don't know, and the resellers don't know. Everyone is in the dark somewhat outside of Blackmagic.

[Chris Pearse]

The camera has been delayed in Japan until October and also has been removed from Amazon.com and co.jp.

http://behindtheslate.com/?p=293

The Pocket Cinema Camera started shipping at the same time worldwide. We definitely have units shipping in Japan, but as with everywhere else there are plenty of backorders to fulfil.

I'm not saying you guys don't have cameras shipping. But there is a disparity between what information re-sellers say and what Blackmagic says. Re-sellers here in Japan say that only a few demo units have been shipped and they are expecting to be ful-filling orders by the end of September/beginning of October time frame. The fact that the camera was available on Amazon.com and Amazon.co.jp at the end of July and then removed shortly after is very suspicious. The Behind the Slate guy simply posted a "cancellation of order" email that was sent to a guy who had ordered the camera through Amazon. Now the camera order has been cancelled because there are no cameras here in Japan. System5.co.jp has the same issue, they'll take the order but they won't provide a ship date which is very strange for sellers of anything here in Japan. Amazon.co.jp just de-listed the product because nobody has a camera a month after the ship date. My suspicion (MY "opinion") is that Amazon.com had the same problem and de-listed the camera.

Look it's cool, I don't need the camera, I was just trying to post some information about the camera because Blackmagic says one thing and re-sellers say another. I still like Blackmagic, I'm still going to buy BMD products, but it's not hard to connect the dots with what's going on. You guys don't have anywhere near enough cameras to ship out. It's cool. It's tough developing a camera. Your customers know that. We want BMD to succeed. We want to be let loose from the grip of the major corporate cartels. But by not being forth coming with your customers your losing them before you even start, you're shooting yourselves in the foot. This is business 101. It's Customer Service, Public Relations and building a relationship with customers. Not hard stuff. This is what differentiate Blackmagic from say Canon, in that you guys have the capability to be completely honest with customers. You're not a major bloated corporate slob-a-don that has to be so secret with everything. Your developing cameras that shoot raw and Prores with off the shelf sensors. There is no secret formula here. You're not developing secret firmware to try and crush the competition, or some new lens technology that can macro in on a fly taking a dump during a locust invasion from 300 meters, your developing exactly what video customers have been asking for, a sensor in a box that doesn't completely suck with some nice inputs and outputs.

The problem for Blackmagic Design with its Japan re-sellers is that the customer service here is excellent and re-sellers will keep customers in the loop and will explain what's going on. I believe the re-sellers here in Japan much more than I believe the PR team at Blackmagic Design, and if re-sellers here say they have no cameras to sell then they have no cameras to sell. If they say that nothing shipped yet, then nothing shipped yet. It's that simple.

Again I still like Blackmagic. I will still buy your products. But many might not. You guys are not dealing with studio recorders anymore, your're dealing with mass market devices for mass consumerism and you need to change your Public Relations strategy.

Well said.

+1 well said.

I pre ordered the day of announcement, paid in full, and have been in constant communication with an Authorized Reseller. They have not had any info on shipping besides what has been stated on this board.

I cant see the resellers deliberately giving false information to it's buyers unless it's false "good" information. I have yet to hear good information, its been we don't know across the board.

Why would they initiate the cancelling of orders in Japan? Why would resellers choose to keep buyers in the
dark, when that's normally the reason buyers become anxious to start cancelling orders.

The reseller I'm dealing with has never given me the idea that they expect cameras to arrive at any date, in fact the salesman that took my order made sure to inform me of how he felt "ship dates" work with Blackmagic products, detailing the issues with the bmcc ef, and mft, but said that they hoped that it would be different with the Pocket camera, and the 4K bmcc.

Kamdigital

-> I preordered on day of announcement at Video Kinki (Kyoto), and was told my BMPCC was in 3 days ago and to go down to collect it. Couldn't collect it just because I was/am still out of the country so it was let on to next person in line. But there -are- sets delivered out there to consumers in the country already.

As for numbers of cameras shipping or manufacturing statics, we do not discuss those. However, if you do have questions about shipping by our distributors, speak with your resellers and they can provide with more information.

Tony, some retailers are NOT being given any information about updates. I have even contacted New Magic only to be given the rude treatment by a female senior staff member who "was unable to advise" to which we are being pushed from pillar to post and most of us have outlayed a financial investment (deposit) in this camera only to be told (or not told) by your colleagues that there are delays and being very vague about actual timelines which is poor business practice. Can't BMD see this?

Is it really too hard for Grant to make some kind of public update??

As for numbers of cameras shipping or manufacturing statics, we do not discuss those. However, if you do have questions about shipping by our distributors, speak with your resellers and they can provide with more information.

Tony, some retailers are NOT being given any information about updates. I have even contacted New Magic only to be given the rude treatment by a female senior staff member who "was unable to advise" to which we are being pushed from pillar to post and most of us have outlayed a financial investment (deposit) in this camera only to be told (or not told) by your colleagues that there are delays and being very vague about actual timelines which is poor business practice. Can't BMD see this?

Is it really too hard for Grant to make some kind of public update??

I have recently too spoken with New Magic and many stores about Pocket stock.. I did not find them rude, they just don’t have information on quantities coming from BMD. Did you perhaps push too hard? I doubt New Magic the distributor knows where your order is situated in pecking position at the store you have pre-ordered from? I doubt New Magic is authorised to give out information on dealer stock deliveries

This lack of communication is really going to back fire on BMD if it hasn't already. People will and already have started cancelling Pre orders based on the missed deadlines and lack of information on shipping dates.

The longer people need to wait and the longer they get NO information the more inclined they may be to cancel their orders and invest in other products instead.

With rumors going wild these days on the net people may start to believe that they may not get their BMPCC until next year...and because they have heard no different from BMD they believe this is Gospel and again cancel their pre orders as they don't want to wait.

My concern is there has been no update by BMD because the news is bad. Maybe they know that the majority of people will not be getting their camera until 2014, and they know if they communicate this then a lot of orders will be cancelled immediately.

If I was told my BMD today that they have 10,000 cameras on a boat now on its way to the UK and I can expect mine in October for definite I would be happy.

I am sure all the retailers are not happy with BMD either, as they are getting inundated with phone calls and emails from people asking where their order is and these companies simply DO NOT KNOW!

This lack of communication is really going to back fire on BMD if it hasn't already. People will and already have started cancelling Pre orders based on the missed deadlines and lack of information on shipping dates.

The longer people need to wait and the longer they get NO information the more inclined they may be to cancel their orders and invest in other products instead.

With rumors going wild these days on the net people may start to believe that they may not get their BMPCC until next year...and because they have heard no different from BMD they believe this is Gospel and again cancel their pre orders as they don't want to wait.

My concern is there has been no update by BMD because the news is bad. Maybe they know that the majority of people will not be getting their camera until 2014, and they know if they communicate this then a lot of orders will be cancelled immediately.

If I was told my BMD today that they have 10,000 cameras on a boat now on its way to the UK and I can expect mine in October for definite I would be happy.

I am sure all the retailers are not happy with BMD either, as they are getting inundated with phone calls and emails from people asking where their order is and these companies simply DO NOT KNOW!

+1