New Camera and Mount Upcoming ?

Ordered a 6K Pro. Not like it's a bad camera that will suddenly stop being useable if a new one comes out next month. But at least I've got options for this coming shoot and can test well in advance to see what the emotimo is capable of weight/balance wise. Have picked up Set A of the Orions (40/65/100) as well which, when seen on an invoice next to those, makes the P6K Pro seem like pocket change.

Orions are great. I used them on the 12K and the Pocket for a film a couple of years ago. This was a prototype at the time.

https://flic.kr/p/2oWuiLT

https://flic.kr/p/2oWuiZy

JB

.. Sounds like your'e doing a "poor mans" moco?
..
JB

Well now I think we understand why.

https://flic.kr/p/2oWuiLT

https://flic.kr/p/2oWuiZy

JB

Thanks John, reassuring to see on both cameras!

Well now I think we understand why.

Rick I take it now isn't the time to mention the set of Pro2be's also on the order...

I know this is off topic. So, I'll leave it there. But there's a serious discussion to be had about the industry and revenue streams.

Perhaps. I wonder if it was Barbie 5 and Oppenheimer 7 if the numbers would be the same.

I think the problem is that there's a lot of regurgitated dreck and the very American pursuit...the "franchise" films and not a lot of original ideas.

JB

I agree that original content is desired, and audiences are suffering "franchise fatigue" resulting in them skipping some sequel/universe films in theaters. Especially when the studios have programed them to expect the same films to be streaming in around 3-months time.

So Barbie 5 would not have made as much. And, it seems that WBD is taking the wrong lesson from the film as Mattel has announced numerous movies based on their products. But it's not like Studio Execs haven't been taking these wrong lessons from successful films for the last 50-years.

Back on a technical level audiences do need a theatrical experience that they cannot get at home. The story needs to justify this, of course, but if the film can create an visual and auditory experience unlike anything the audience has experienced in the past while telling a fresh and imaginative story that doesn't follow a formula then that movie can be extremely successful. This is where I think Blackmagic could carve a nice place in the industry.

They are already poised with the perfect camera to post workflow. And, with virtual production they already have certain tools in place that they can seamlessly build a great cinema camera that works in the virtual environment. I'd love for Blackmagic to build camera tracking hardware into the camera body or the accessory design. The more seamless the better. The easier to build and the less wires, the better. The key is making production workflow a breeze so that the story and performances can be focused on.

Again, audiences don't care what camera is used. They don't care at all about the tech behind the films. All they care about is whether they can connect with the characters and if the story being told engages them.

…
Rick I take it now isn't the time to mention the set of Pro2be's also on the order...

Now that’s intriguing! What are you planning?

https://petapixel.com/2023/08/15/laowa- ... xpression/

I will say that returning to 35mm Still Photography, has made me embrace the concept of Blackmagic going to VistaVision/Full-Frame. Especially since I wouldn't mind them increasing the 12K pixel size to keep 12K resolution but in a VistaVision sensor.

Currently I'm scanning the film at 5,350px X 3,602px, which is equal to 19.3 MP. I'm getting 7,008px X 4,672px on the Sony A7IV, which is 32.7 MP.

So 12K is more than enough resolution for VistaVision. The math I did for increasing the 12K from S35 to VV says that then it would be 16K. I don't think we really need 16K.

Medium Format is currently pushing the insane 101.9 MP resolutions at 11,656px X 8,742px. That's what the new Hasselblad X2D 100C & FUJIFILM GFX 100S currently are doing. However, that's generally more resolution coming from the height as opposed to the width. Still the sensors are much bigger than the S35 of the 12K.

So do we need 16K VV from BMD? 12K Seems sufficient enough for Medium Format stills. So 12K VV should be sufficient for BMD. And, by increasing the pixel size then maybe the dynamic range can be increased. So a 16 Stop 12K VistaVision BMD Camera would be amazing.

And, for reference 16K Full Frame 135 would be 16,366px X 10,914px or, 178.6 MP. And, that would be an aspect ratio of 1.5:1 Open Gate. Cropping to 16x9 would result in 16,366px X 9,194px or, 150.5 MP.

What are you planning?

Bankruptcy.

I will say that returning to 35mm Still Photography, has made me embrace the concept of Blackmagic going to VistaVision/Full-Frame. Especially since I wouldn't mind them increasing the 12K pixel size to keep 12K resolution…

The easiest path to match 135 film gate or support a 36mm active sensor width with the current 2.2 micron photosites is a 16K version of their custom RGBWWW CFA. But it should be marketed towards 8K deliverables such as 8K HDR television. However the existing 12K camera can also support 8K deliverables so I’m not sure going to a 16K sensor will gain them more than headlines in the cinema reviewer ecosystem.

I believe higher dynamic range will be a more appropriate design goal than can be achieved in a few different ways, the easiest being fatter 4.4 photosites which could be used in combination with other electronic design techniques at the photosite level. A flagship 6K camera that achieves a usable 15 stops (or more) would be a better competitor to generate 4K deliverables that will be the largest market for 10 years minimum.

Best not to get too far ahead of the industry as it’s too difficult to predict technology breakthroughs. Yes, people are shooting for 8K deliverables, but I doubt they’re using the UMP12K to do that today for more than VFX plates. BMD may not have World Conquest as a corporate goal, but if they did they will need to build a taller pyramid beginning at ground level with sound footings (customer relations, quality, support, reliability, emergency support, etc). Chasing IMAX, 65/70mm sensors or even VV without those improvements to the footings won’t bring them any success at the top.

Upscaling to 8K deliverables from 4K deliverables today is astoundingly good in most situations including how an actor is portrayed. Let’s not forget the real actors for which even 4K may be the limit of our tolerance to suspend our disbelief and enjoy the art of the performance. 16K originals will have us focused on their pores and not their expressions of art.

And then, don’t forget the resolution limit of lenses.
Also look at Arri‘s philosophy, which aims for better pixels, not more and more.
It doesn’t seem to hurt them.

Larger pixels aren’t necessarily an instant path to more DR.

Arri themselves have gone much smaller with the Alexa 35. They had to because in order to hit 4k+ you gotta be able to have enough pixels in there.

It’s not JUST the size. There’s sooooo much more going on. Arri and BMD (and lately some canon) have used dual gain sensors for increasing DR. (Not to be confused with dual ISO)

And with BMDs RGBW a sensor it’s actually really hard to compare apples to fruitcake.

They are not a Bayer sensor. Almost every other cinema camera sensor RGGB Bayer pattern.

And in the same size space you have Bayer 2x2 RGGB totalling 4 photosites we have a 6x6 grid of RRRRRRGGGGGGBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW totalling 36 photosites.

4 vs 36 to make one pixel.

Which one is better?

One has equal colour channel ratio representation.
One has larger photosites.
One has smaller photosites but a lot many more of them.
One has a clear or W photosites. In the algorithm this behaves like a fourth colour further complicating the maths. Because it’s both brightness AND colour (in combination with neighbouring photosites.

It’s really best to get away from thinking about the Ks and the total number or size.

Both sensors use maths to generate the image vac use no single photosites is truly representing the colour information. It’s all conjured forth by an algorithm comparing the colour at the neighbouring photosites

For me I think of it as more samples. The more samples, the better and more accurate the maths can be.

JB

What are we to make of the rumours that the next BM camera is a refresh of the pocket in a smaller body with L mount?

Wasn't that rumor coming from a dubious source?

There's still no perfect cinema camera for me, every single one has at least one caveat (codec, latency, price, weight, screen ect).

BMD have always provided the cinema cams with the best price/performance ratio and BRAW is my favorite format. I still hope they have something (completely new) in the pipeline.

I think the history of BMD has been that the leaks and rumours are really just educated guesses and aren’t correct in their entirety.

L mount is an easy logical guess as already discussed many times in this thread. It makes the most sense as their next mount.

Make something smaller with L mount? How is that a rumour? More like a user request….

JB

John, I didn’t realize up to 36 photosites on the sensor were referenced to determine the values for a single pixel on the UMPro12K camera. Not quite the same as conventional processing from a RGGB CFA (2x2) with a larger pitch but a 6x6 matrix with half the photosites being clear can have its benefits in spite of the smaller dimensions of each photosite.

Okay, I’ll relax my campaign to go with a 6K Super35 sensor.

Still I think there must be some merit to a cut of the 12K sensor to the dimensions of a traditional mirrorless sensor (with a little over-provisioning) with an 8K+ sensor in a smaller and light body. Would be very interesting with the goal of supporting high value 4K deliverables including ProRes 444. I think that might be broadly appealing with BMD’s Colour science and RGBWWW image processing and allow BRAW capture at open gate and windowed resolutions similar to the UMP12.

JB thank you for the great breakdown on the 12K Sensors RGBW Design and Working for color and resolution. Didn't realize there was 36 photosites for 1 pixel either. That's pretty crazy! And, that has to be why the 12K colors look so good.

But also thank you for explaining how larger pixels are not the solution to keeping 12K but in a VistaVision size. So I guess we are talking 16K for VistaVision if expanding the current RGBW design to that larger sensor size. But due to the brilliance of the BMD Algorithm with RGBW and BRAW then you can achieve 8K VV from that 16K. Even possibly 4K VV. The 12K goes by 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3 levels for the resolution. So I guess a VistaVision 16K could have a new algorithm for doing 1/4 downsamples, with 1/2 being for 8K. We could also get 12K VV as that would be 3/4.

But that all depends on BMD Engineers and their formulas. 1/3 increments of 16K is a little weirder as 5.33K is 1/3 and 10.66K is 2/3. So they do need to rework their coding for 1/4 increments instead.

Either way, it is indeed complicated and challenging. So before reworking their sensor I wouldn't mind them improving the bodies.

Again at this point CFExpress has a better and more future proof appeal over CFast. So hoping BMD leaves Coast behind. And, hoping again for I/O and Accessories Ports with production in mind.

On the 12K the repeating cmos pattern is 6x6 but that doesn't directly relate to the sampling. A braw chroma pixel is constructed from a 7X7 pixel section of which 16 pixels are sampled for color. Only every fourth pixel is recorded (4:2:0) as a red and blue chroma pixel. The luma pixels are comprised of smaller filters using 3x3 matrices for the clear, and 5x5 for the filtered pixels. This is an example of how the red channel is derived on the 12k.

Good Luck

red pixel.png (82.79 KiB) Viewed 16157 times

Back to the OG question.

Is a new camera and mount upcoming?

I'm not 100% sure but isn't this now the longest period of time without a new cinema cam announcement? It's 30 month since the 6K Pro.

Back to the OG question.

Is a new camera and mount upcoming?

I'm not 100% sure but isn't this now the longest period of time without a new cinema cam announcement? It's 30 month since the 6K Pro.

After the 6K Pro the 6K G2 was released right? Maybe not a completely new camera but at least a substantial update.

I really hope BM releases a new camera with the same Sony sensor as the Fuji X-H2S / Kinefinity Mavo m2. Fast read out speeds, 14 bit read out, great dynamic range. But this time also include a proper OLPF with IR filtration. I think you would have something that seriously rivals the Komodo-X image quality wise.

Back to the OG question.

Is a new camera and mount upcoming?

I'm not 100% sure but isn't this now the longest period of time without a new cinema cam announcement? It's 30 month since the 6K Pro.

Technically you had the Pocket 6k G2 AND the Ursa Mini 12k OLPF.

I'm of the belief that at this point only a mirrorless mount would benefit the Pocket line. The URSA line still is best with real cinema glass in PL. And, that's where I want it to lean.

I would note that I would like the Pockets to take some cues from the Canon C70. Beyond a Mirrorless Mount with Internal ND, it has a dedicated SDI Timecode Input/Output, which keeps free the two Mini XLR and one 3.5mm TRS Audio Inputs. It does use HDMI, which I don't like, but I wouldn't mind both SDI Out and HDMI Out.

The one thing I hate about the C70 is that it doesn't use CFExpress, and instead has Dual SD Card Slots. So a Pocket that uses CFExpress Type B is important.

Then finding a way to built in the dual battery battery grip so that you can have two batteries internal on the camera for longer battery life would be fantastic.

So that's where I'd like to see the Pockets go in terms of body improvements if getting a new mount.

The URSA line I've said numerous times what I'd like.

For future proofing a swappable sensor module when you upgrade to a new sensor, then a swappable body when you want to upgrade the body with new feature but still handle the old sensor module.

Then finding a way to built in the dual battery battery grip so that you can have two batteries internal on the camera for longer battery life would be fantastic.

Poor battery life has always been the biggest con of the Pocket line imo. Getting rid of that whole form factor would allow larger NP-F batteries.

Or change it so the back takes batteries, like Ollie Larkin's hack:

For future proofing a swappable sensor module when you upgrade to a new sensor, then a swappable body when you want to upgrade the body with new feature but still handle the old sensor module.

I think Blackmagic already tried the swappable sensor with the original URSA and it didn't work out for them. They were never able to get the 4.6K sensor block into the URSA and thus offered the URSA Mini Pro (2017) at a discounted price for URSA owners as a concession.

It's a novel idea. But, in practice, it doesn't seem to work.

Honestly, I'd like Blackmagic to develop a Trade-In and Save Program with older gear. In particular making it so that the hardware is made of recycle parts and material. I understand some components are not truly useful after they are rendered obsolete by newer components, but making it so that there is a recycle program would be extremely nice.

We'll see what happens with IBC 2023. I'm not holding my breath in anticipation of something new. Maybe some sweet Resolve update for IBC. But camera wise I doubt we'll hear anything new.

Then finding a way to built in the dual battery battery grip so that you can have two batteries internal on the camera for longer battery life would be fantastic.

Poor battery life has always been the biggest con of the Pocket line imo. Getting rid of that whole form factor would allow larger NP-F batteries.

Or change it so the back takes batteries, like Ollie Larkin's hack:

Yeah, it's the problem of trying to emulate that DSLR/Mirrorless Still Camera Design. Between the Pocket 6K Pro, the Sony FX30 & FX3, and the Canon C70, I'd say the C70 has the best battery life and battery option. But I still don't like it all that much. P6KPro definitely has the nicest display. FX30 & FX3 has the worst screen and battery option, plus lack of internal ND and I/O options makes those the ones I dislike the most.

I just used the Sony A7IV for a gig on Friday because they wanted a Sony. I hated not having internal ND. But then they wanted baked in look, and I hated the Sony baked in Rec709 look. Extended Video on the Pocket is a lot better. I also hated the screen. And the EVF was okay, but the Pocket 6K Pro EVF is far better. The only thing that was nice was autofocus tracking, but even that was problematic at times. I kept switching it off and using manual focus. Suffice to say I want the Sony to only be for stills.

So the Pockets win in many ways still for me. Even if I prefer the URSA Mini Pro over the Pockets. But there's definitely need for improvement.

I wouldn't mind if Blackmagic did a Pocket with a switch from video to stills mode. With a Full Frame / VistaVision sensor size above 8K that would be very good. Especially if 15 stops of dynamic range. The key question is what RAW stills format as Capture One and Lightroom would need to be able to work with it. So BRAW Stills opened up to those programs? It would be nice and competitive if the Pockets were more still capable. But you need to be able to review the stills in camera.

I think BMD offering to install/update older 12ks with the new OLPF is VERY promising for future gear purchases on their flagship products.

I can see Resolve getting another update with all the AI tools out there now. I REALLY hope they expand the gyro features in all their cameras to benefit from stabilization and tracking in Resolve.

I'm really looking forward to the next camera and hope they put some more Resolve integration into the tech!

-side note:
I keep looking for my next camera, even while I use the crap out of the 12k and P6kPro... primarily because my ideal camera is either too expensive right now or doesn't exist. I've been on the path of upgrading cameras every few years and have enjoyed selling gear while it still has value and baking some of the cost of new gear into expenses every year.

For future proofing a swappable sensor module when you upgrade to a new sensor, then a swappable body when you want to upgrade the body with new feature but still handle the old sensor module.

I think Blackmagic already tried the swappable sensor with the original URSA and it didn't work out for them. They were never able to get the 4.6K sensor block into the URSA and thus offered the URSA Mini Pro (2017) at a discounted price for URSA owners as a concession.

It's a novel idea. But, in practice, it doesn't seem to work.

It did'nt work because the tech back then was not up to it plus the big Ursa design did not win many admirers due to its size, weight etc.

For future proofing a swappable sensor module when you upgrade to a new sensor, then a swappable body when you want to upgrade the body with new feature but still handle the old sensor module.

I think Blackmagic already tried the swappable sensor with the original URSA and it didn't work out for them. They were never able to get the 4.6K sensor block into the URSA and thus offered the URSA Mini Pro (2017) at a discounted price for URSA owners as a concession.

It's a novel idea. But, in practice, it doesn't seem to work.

It did'nt work because the tech back then was not up to it plus the big Ursa design did not win many admirers due to its size, weight etc.

I think in reality it's very difficult to 'swap a sensor'. It's not just the sensor that makes the image. It's a complete image pipeline with a lot of components which need to be compatible and exactly tuned to each other. I think the only way to do it is when you design and manufacture every component yourself, but almost no camera manufacturer does that because of the costs involved.

The Ursa 12K just dropped in price by nearly $1,300! Something is rumbling, and I can’t wait to see what it is.

If they even just released another version of the Ursa 12K OLPF that had a CFExpress Type B slot I reckon that'd be enough for most folks.

Storm is coming!

Maybe they adjusted the price to take on their competition:

For the price of a Sony FX3 that records in 12 bit raw you could have this:

Blackmagic Design URSA Mini Pro 12K (PL) $4,875.00 USD
B&H # BLURSAMP12K
Manufacturer # CINEURSAMUPRO12K

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... o_12k.html

SmallRig Universal Holder for External SSD
BSH2343 $39.90, Kondor Blue URSA MINI SIDE PLATE KB_URSAM_SP_Bk $74.99, Kondor Blue USB C TO USB C CABLE KB_USBC_RA12 $14.99 and Samsung 4TB T7 Shield Portable SSD $243.99

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BHZQGN26

$4,875.00 $74.99 $14.99 $116.99 = $5207.97 USD

Sony FX3 $3899.99, Atomos Ninja V+ $799.00,
Angelbird AtomX SSDmini (1TB) $399.99, Green Extreme NP-F975 battery $69.99 and ZILR Micro-HDMI to HDMI Cable $29.99

3899.99 + 799.00 + 399.99 + 69.99= $5,198.96 USD

Plus mount for Ninja and ProRes raw license

If they even just released another version of the Ursa 12K OLPF that had a CFExpress Type B slot I reckon that'd be enough for most folks.

most folks = you

The Ursa 12K just dropped in price by nearly $1,300! Something is rumbling, and I can’t wait to see what it is.

Interesting that the prices on BMD's web site are still the same even though B&H has them discounted.

Also noting that B&H is having some 50 year anniversary.

I think it’s just a temporary sale at a few resellers. Notes that the UMPG2 is still the same $6K price. And, they are showing the UMP12K models with the original price crossed out and then the discounted prices shown.

But IBC is around the corner so I could be wrong. Very soon we’ll have answers. Deity just announced they have 7 New Products they’re introducing at IBC, so Blackmagic could always surprise us.


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I think it’s just a temporary sale at a few resellers. Notes that the UMPG2 is still the same $6K price. And, they are showing the UMP12K models with the original price crossed out and then the discounted prices shown.

But IBC is around the corner so I could be wrong. Very soon we’ll have answers. Deity just announced they have 7 New Products they’re introducing at IBC, so Blackmagic could always surprise us.


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Where did Deity announce that?

If they even just released another version of the Ursa 12K OLPF that had a CFExpress Type B slot I reckon that'd be enough for most folks.

most folks = you

LOL, well, what else does the Ursa 12K need at this point? It's a very capable camera, short of the internal media not being able to keep up with its most demanding codec/resolution/FPS settings.

LOL, well, what else does the Ursa 12K need at this point? It's a very capable camera, short of the internal media not being able to keep up with its most demanding codec/resolution/FPS settings.

A different lens mount.

I think it’s just a temporary sale at a few resellers. Notes that the UMPG2 is still the same $6K price. And, they are showing the UMP12K models with the original price crossed out and then the discounted prices shown.

But IBC is around the corner so I could be wrong. Very soon we’ll have answers. Deity just announced they have 7 New Products they’re introducing at IBC, so Blackmagic could always surprise us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where did Deity announce that?

Deity announced it on their Twitter & Instagram. Probably their Facebook as well, but I didn't look there.
Tweet: https://twitter.com/deitymicrophone/sta ... 56426?s=20
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwp_1jNh ... BiNWFlZA==
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/reel/229120550117023

If they even just released another version of the Ursa 12K OLPF that had a CFExpress Type B slot I reckon that'd be enough for most folks.

most folks = you

LOL, well, what else does the Ursa 12K need at this point? It's a very capable camera, short of the internal media not being able to keep up with its most demanding codec/resolution/FPS settings.

The monitor in my opinion is really disappointing. As a someone who uses the EVF often its still a huge inconvenience having an un-usable monitor outside, would be great to have it be a high bright with smaller bezels to allow for slightly bigger screen. I know all monitors can suffer from cold weather ghosting, but the URSA's is the worst i've used on any camera. Living in a cold climate and shooting outside is a big pain. Overall I just feel like the screen used is kinda cheap and low quality for their top of the line camera.

I just want a new Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera.

I dream of BMD to develop an entire production eco system.

Cameras with integrated wireless video transmission, VideoAssists with integrated receiver, Lidar supported AF and follow focus units (sending Lidar waveform to the AC's monitor like Ronin 4D does), and everything powered from unified types of batteries.

As Cooke just announced new Mirrorless Mount Cinema Lenses, I’d say it’s definitely time for Blackmagic to embrace Mirrorless Mount for their Pockets. Now a Sony FX3 or Canon C70 or Red Komodo X with a Cooke SP3 would make a perfect car mount rig. Blackmagic still has their perks, but they need to offer something competitive.


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Yes, first thing I looked for was the mounts for the SP3: L-mount available as an option, not included for free.

It’ll be interesting to see if BMD goes L or RF mount. They already obviously have a relationship with Canon for the EF mount…

They already obviously have a relationship with Canon for the EF mount…

No they don’t.

EF is all reverse engineered.

JB

They already obviously have a relationship with Canon for the EF mount…

If there was a relationship between Canon and Blackmagic regarding the correct FFD spec for the BMCC in 2013, they wouldn't have temporarily had infinity focusing issues on 11mm lenses.

Re: Flange distance issue

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4319&p=26558&hilit=Tokina+FFD#p26558

It’ll be interesting to see if BMD goes L or RF mount. They already obviously have a relationship with Canon for the EF mount…

EF mount is open domain now

I’m sure that Blackmagic Design release a new amazing camera in the near time.
I had news confirmed by the fact that…

I just bought a new Fuji camera x-h2
Every time, Blackmagic Design wait that I bought a new camera, and they release an amazing new camera themself few weeks later.

Obviously it’s a joke (no I really bought a Fuji, but I keep my two p6kg1 and my umpG1), but I cannot resist to do that.

The now I can continue to do photo with my pocket6k and shoot video with the Fuji in braw with va12g


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EF mount is open domain now? as far as I know there is just different reverse engineered implementations.

It’ll be interesting to see if BMD goes L or RF mount. They already obviously have a relationship with Canon for the EF mount…

EF mount is open domain now

The patent expired.

EF-S is still locked.

Something new is coming on 9-14-23!