Future of m43 black magic support

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Adamflynn

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Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 6:25 am

Hi guys.
I was one of those people who got excited to finally see availability of bmpcc4k.
Years were passed since the original bmpcc camera and figured the new camera was going to have some life to it.
Sadly two months or less of my purchase, the 6k camera was announced.
I already had a bunch of Ef lenses, so it was a bit of a bummer.

I do like the smaller form factor of m43 and had purchased a voightlandet 17mm/35mm equivalent.
It’s a great setup.
I would actually like to purchase the additional f.95 voightlander lenses.


My question is , do you believe blackmagic will come out with new pocket cinema camera in m43 format, or will they go with ff mounts Moving forwards?
Would appreciate the advice.
Thanks in advance.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 6:03 pm

With Olympus out of the game and Panasonic offering FF next to MFT models, I'd expect MFT to die out sooner or later. But I'm sure there will be a place for S-35 and FF. Question is: which mount? Mounts with a long focal distance like EF seem to be doomed too…
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 6:27 pm

I use ef mount like jolly during last ten years and I bought many good adapter for m4/3, Sony e mount, fx mount, and more.
A longer flange can be adapted on shorter, the opposite no.
Actually there are tons of camera on market with that mount, it’s impossible that disappear in the next 5 years, then over 5 years I hope for you that you earn a lots to cover every single cent spent on that tools, or the mount will not be the main problem.

I’m from Genoa, all shop must be good business. Canon mount keep their value along the time, different brand often lower a lots their value on used market. I often bought and later sell a lens near to the same price after one two years. With Panasonic lenses were not the same.


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John Brawley

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 7:50 pm

1. Olympus hasn't left us just yet. They sold their imaging business to another company. Maybe that company will keep making cameras, maybe a lot cheaper. But they will still be m4/3 cameras. But they won't suddenly be changing for the next 24-48 months.

2. A (good) FF sensor size is difficult because of the costs. If you think about it, what GOOD and DECENT video camera with a short rolling shutter time and a good 10 bit PLUS RAW codec internally recording is on the market ? There are plenty of FF video cameras. Not so many once you say short integration time and RAW and 12/10 bit. If they do a 135 / FF camera in the near future, I don't think it will be "pocket" cheap....


Mounts is a really tricky one. I doubt RF mount is available. Canon don't share with the exception of Komodo, and likely that's part of a more complex IP swap for recording RAW in camera.

Sony's e mount will never happen, because Sony never share.

L mount could MAYBE be a mount, but as yet it's a bit unproven for cinema use...

I'd much rather they stick to PL and or LPL BUT the problem then is that there's no good way for carrying comms to the stills lenses we all love using that require power for IS and iris.

So what's left....

Maybe to make their own mountless camera...leave some wires and screw holes and let the aftermarket vendors make the mount adaptors ??

Make their own universal mount ? Try and get some lens makers to adopt it ? Sigma ? The new Olympus optics company ?

JB
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Uli Plank

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 9:39 pm

There's already a good adapter from PL to L mount by C7.

Oh, and I love my Olympus glass, but I doubt that we'll see much more under that name.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostMon Jun 29, 2020 10:34 pm

John Brawley wrote:Maybe to make their own mountless camera...leave some wires and screw holes and let the aftermarket vendors make the mount adaptors ??

Make their own universal mount ? Try and get some lens makers to adopt it ? Sigma ? The new Olympus optics company ?


Buying PL lenses at this point is getting pretty affordable when they pop up used. I've bought PL cameras to have the ability to rent the higher end PL lenses, even if those times are few and far between.

Meike had announced the PL version of a 35mm in a new housing. I wonder how close the optics are to the Veydra / Meike mft platform. The pricing seems very low, under $1,000. They also announced it in RF for Komodo.

Blackmagic already have the interchanging mount options on URSA Mini Pro, adapting that ability to the smaller sensor cameras or prioritizing MFT mount in a new housing with a super-35 sensor would really be great. MFT lenses that cover super35 would be a little more future proof.
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dondidnod

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 12:04 am

Certainly the camera manufacturers believe that they can make a lot of money by getting people to switch everything over to full frame. Time will tell if in these uncertain economic times, there will be a mass movement in that direction. Traditionally films have not been shot in this aspect.

For wide shots, full frame can produce a cleaner image. That's a small part of the story you're trying to tell in a film though.

I think that the M4/3 mount has too much to offer to be discontinued. The new Z CAM E2-M4 has an M4/3 mount and should be popular. The long term strategy for a Cinematographer would be to have access to good Cinema lenses, either to rent or buy. The traditional standard for these has been the ARRI PL mount. An EF mount camera has a much more limited range of PL mount lenses that can be adapted, due to it's flange distance. The M4/3 mount has access to virtually any lens that was made to be used in a film camera, including a wide range of PL mount lenses.

There is a wide variety of formerly very expensive Super 16 Cinema lenses that can be had for peanuts. The 2.6K sensor area option of the BMPCC 4K gives you access to them.

One unique aspect of the M4/3 mount is the fact that it has a two stop advantage over full frame in the depth of field. This means that both foreground and background is in focus. When using longer lenses, you can get shots with it that would not be possible with a full frame camera.

Here is a comparison between the M4/3 Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 lens and a full frame Leica 90mm F/2.0 APO Summicron-M ASPH lens:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=109240&p=603530&hilit=S1H+bottom#p603530

I would have no hesitation in buying more Voightlander M4/3 lenses longer than 17.5mm. They will be of use for some time, and a good investment, even if you someday have the funds to go full frame for your wide shots.
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rick.lang

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 2:13 am

So far I only shoot PL-mount lenses. Doesn’t matter much to me if the sensor size varies greatly. As long as I can use the same lenses. The Tokina 11-20mm doesn’t do 135 film format but the SLR Magic primes are fine anywhere. What’s more important is the pixel pitch; few manufacturers seem to really want larger pixels on larger sensors. Sure if I needed to shoot 8K or 16K, I’d want a bigger sensor.

Sounds crazy but the next top of the line iPhone may shoot HFR up to 240 fps 4K!
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ricardo marty

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 3:28 am

John Brawley wrote:1.
Sony's e mount will never happen, because Sony never share.
- Olympus visionary (still going yes)


Sigma makes sony e mount lens aspc at least, Tamron is also making an e mount. However, I wish someone could find a way of making an e to mft mount adapter.

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Denny Smith

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 7:07 am

Not possible, as the E Mount (18mm) has a shorter FFD than MFT (19.25mm), to make an adapter you need the FFD to be shorter on the camera than the adapted lens, not the other way round... ;)
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Uli Plank

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 7:53 am

Ryan Earl wrote:Blackmagic already have the interchanging mount options on URSA Mini Pro, adapting that ability to the smaller sensor cameras or prioritizing MFT mount in a new housing with a super-35 sensor would really be great. MFT lenses that cover super35 would be a little more future proof.


Even if JVC has a camera with S-35 and MFT, it's very narrow for that sensor size and would limit the adaptation of lenses.
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 2:25 pm

Yeah I’m thinking of those E mount full frame users with the SLR Magic 25mm Microprime. Now Zcam with the MFT full frame option. Any huge drawbacks there? They are letting you change mounts as others have mentioned.

I’ve set up my pocket 4K with either a metabones PL to MFT Cine with a baseplate to lock them together or the SLR Magic 25mm MFT .95

I’d buy a new interchanging or mountless camera, even a universal evf with hdmi. Treating those options as accessories definitely extends the life of the camera. My URSA mini doesn’t know I have my lcd screen open these days and I have to press play then record to change menu items.
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rick.lang

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 12:56 am

Ryan Earl wrote:... My URSA mini doesn’t know I have my lcd screen open these days and I have to press play then record to change menu items.


Haven’t heard of that sad issue! Was BMD Support able to provide and assistance?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 2:48 am

Ryan, I doubt the ZCam will stay in FF mode with the MFT Mount attached, it will probably window the sensor down, as a MFT Mount would vignette the sensor, let alone any MFT Mount lens you add.

I have decided I am not buying anymore MFT lenses. Going to stick with my Zeiss ZF collection, and may add the Zeiss Milvus 21mm to my kit.
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Adamflynn

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 3:14 am

Thanks for all the wonderful responses guys. M43 seems like a good format, and I feel is like to stick with it and make the investment into the voightlander f.095 lenses. They’ll be a much bigger investment than the camera body, and I hope blackmagic will continue to make pocket cinema cameras with the m43 format in the future. Do you think they’ll make a 6k m43 for example?

Thanks again!
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Ryan Earl

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 12:27 pm

rick.lang wrote:Haven’t heard of that sad issue! Was BMD Support able to provide and assistance?


I'm not sure if it is hardware or firmware related. I haven't addressed it yet since it doesn't affect recording clips, and there is an easy way to get around it. I will probably email them soon. It's had the same firmware for a long time, it feels like it needs a "security and stability" update like on Mac when you run an outdated OS.

Concerning "Future of m43 black magic support" it would be helpful if they established long term support time frames like they do for Mac OS, at least for firmware in the cameras.
Denny Smith wrote:Ryan, I doubt the ZCam will stay in FF mode with the MFT Mount attached, it will probably window the sensor down, as a MFT Mount would vignette the sensor, let alone any MFT Mount lens you add.

I have decided I am not buying anymore MFT lenses. Going to stick with my Zeiss ZF collection, and may add the Zeiss Milvus 21mm to my kit.


I held a set of Veydra MFT for 4 years waiting to see what came up for them for super35 sensors. :?

I switched this year to a set of used CP.2 PL lenses for a bit more money and more flexibility. The URSA 4.6K is still my go to in PL. The 21mm Zeiss CP.2 is great, it seems to have the lowest amount of CA in the set. Do you already have a 21mm? I've had the 20mm Nikon AIS for fifteen years, that's always been one of my favorite focal lengths on 135 / full frame.
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dondidnod

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostThu Jul 02, 2020 5:40 pm

Adamflynn wrote:M43 seems like a good format, and I feel is like to stick with it and make the investment into the voightlander f.095 lenses.

I think you will be happy cutting between a set of fast Voightlanders. You get a good taste of a sharp long DOF at closed apertures and thanks to it's speed, a dreamy, cinematic shallow DOF at open apertures with ND filtering. With a BMPCC 4K in available light, they can deliver acceptable images that would look terrible otherwise.

Here is the Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 lens on the BMPCC 4K. The background is from a Vormaxlens 60mm EF-S F/1.8 Petzval lens through a DEC Lensregain 0.75x focal reducer.
Screenshot_20200702-104628.jpg
Voightlander 42.5mm F/0.95 lens
Screenshot_20200702-104628.jpg (544.54 KiB) Viewed 115 times

Here is the Voightlander 25mm F/0.95 lens on the BMPCC 4K (cropped image):
4B005242V1BkRevealA.jpg
Voightlander 25mm F/0.95 lens
4B005242V1BkRevealA.jpg (661.82 KiB) Viewed 125 times

Here is the Voightlander 17.5mm F/0.95 lens on the BMPCC 4K. The San Francisco background is from a 1966 37mm Mir-1 F/2.8 lens through a DEC Lensregain 0.75x focal reducer.
A010_05111044_C052LtA.jpg
Voightlander 17.5mm F/0.95 lens
A010_05111044_C052LtA.jpg (848.7 KiB) Viewed 125 times
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Denny Smith

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 3:04 am

Ryan, I am going back a forth between the Zeiss 21mm and the new Nikon Z 20mmS lens. I know the Zeiss 21mm is a great lens, and I am leaning that direction.
Cheers
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Uli Plank

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Re: Future of m43 black magic support

PostFri Jul 03, 2020 5:21 am

The Zeiss is carrying the genes of the Zeiss/Yashica Distagon 21mm, which is a legend. People are still paying very high prices for that one.
And then, Nikon lenses are focusing the other way round. You can fix that with a follow focus, but it'll drive you mad when focusing directly.
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